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Where I am Now on Discipleship

Also in a note on Facebook
Some were discussing recent Juan Carlos Ortiz material that has been posted, then Megan Anne Fey wrote Chris, do you have any good reading on "true discipleship" (Internet materials), the Lord has commissioned me and I would love to read more about it...
Here is what I initially wrote, followed by a longer reply to her question
Allibris is good for Ortiz books. The original was one of those historical confluences of "mismatches" that God is in like Rahab and the spies. Jamie Buckingham was a pastor out of a job because he had fallen in adultery...so he became a writer to the new fledgling baptized in the Spirit Community.Ortiz being Argentinian, needed someone to work ... See morepatiently with him to get the English right!!! So "Call to discipleship" was born. This was the original Spirit format of what later became the shepherding pyramid still visible today, though softened. In the original format, which is what we'd also been led to in England....which is why the book is in my DNA....we learned that Discipleship comes out of relationship, it comes from Holy Spirit prepared "fathers", male or female, and involves feeding the young with stuff as God gives revelation. It is warm, not sterile. It is dependant on people walking in a living relationship with Jesus and it definitely involves a bit of "going to hell" for the people you are being used to feed. What I mean is...you feed with unconditional love...because "reactions" come up and some of the freshly prepared food is thrown back over you. Then as Ed Miller says, "when you've taken the disciples to the throne, just like any good taxi driver you withdraw.
Discipleship is not about Alpha Courses, though they can be used. It is not about manuals. It is not about study groups on a Tuesday evening. You'll find people don't have problems on Tuesday evenings, it will be Wednesday! It's not about mini Sunday services with preprepared speeches in your home. It is not about discipling people to you, or your ... See morechurch. You know when you've succeeded not when they are in your church, but when they know how to live Jesus as them, in their calling. Discipleship is now a dirty word.But a true discipler, as in any ministry, takes on the same role that Joseph had with Mary. He takes all the flack for a babe born out of wedlock, without being the actual father. I'll spell that out. Unlike seminary trained pastors who feel they have earned their position and now "disciple" people into "their ministry" and "their church", a true discipler realises he is discipling people out of a job, with nothing in it for him, while taking all the flack "for being out of wedlock"....that is true Spirit stuff always looks iffy to carnal bystanders who cannot understand what is going on.
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Here is my fuller reply to Megan about what I am feeling now about Discipleship

We are in a singular time period. Corporately, were we to view the parable of building on the sand and building on the rock....we have discovered that we weren't quite on the rock and people all over the world are still digging down to find it. (Understand here I am talking in terms of building the Kingdom of God,personal salvation we have clear.).Apart from individuals like Norman Grubb, Major Thomas and others....Everything, absolutely everything out there that relates to discipleship has a very naive view of what humans are. I don't yet know of a single book that covers discipleship from the bedrock foundation of reversing Genesis 3 by faith in a Christ who wants to live out Our Life as Us. So herein lies the problem.

Nor is there a book that covers discipleship in a way that faithfully honours some of the ways the Holy Spirit has led a whole generation or 3 of people as they have rediscovered the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Living in any sense at all corporately is doomed to failure without an active relationship with the Holy Spirit. To the extent that any of us have lived continuously together as a worshipping community advancing in the knowledge of God, that, from a human perspective has to be a divine miracle. Sin has disconnected us from God and each other at a very core level. For this reason, one of the spin offs of getting to know Jesus better is loving my brother and sister more. This side of discipleship is behind this series of posts which begins here http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2009/04/from-mystery-of-sin-to-mystery-of-syn.html and continues via the ”next button” to the 8th post. There’s “How do we live this stuff ?” http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2009/06/i-was-encouraged-to-get-message-from.html

The taxi Driver picture of Ed Miller, and my own revelation on Joseph taking on Mary with child are two key foundations to discipleship. They are the two barricades against “Pyramid” building in the Body of Christ. If people took regard to just these two principles half of the present structures would disappear overnight.

Since these posts I have been seeing more clearly what Romans 1:21 means For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

We became effectively locked in our left brains, alienated from God’s life which should be bubbling up actively from within, but is clogged up in shame and hurt, and effectively cut off from God.

So you can see how addressing this problem with mere manuals , however good they are like the YWAM Discipleship manual, cannot change the fifth column in our own make-up. Our own mind filters God out by default!!

There are two models of discipleship or Temple building in the Bible. There is the picture of each stone being prepared beforehand in the quarry, then seamlessly fitted together on the Temple site. This is similar to our own individual daily walks preparing us in Ephesians 4 and 5 fashion, for corporate warfare in Ephesians 6.

The second model is the way the disciples lived with Jesus for 3 years . This model was transplanted in the early churches where people hungrily learned as much as they could from living together, sharing together and attending to what the apostles were bringing of the revelation of the life of Christ. A proto type of this was experienced by ourselves in Emsworth thirty years ago as, as many as 30 lived together in one not too large house.

You notice I do not view discipleship too separately from building the House of the Lord.
The vision of the Church is so powerful, and the love being shared abroad in people’s hearts by the Holy Spirit so intoxicating that others are pretty soon drawn in.

But one of my latest revelations concerning discipleship actually comes from the calling of Moses. This also is one of the most important keys to ministry and discipleship that you will ever hear and we will spend our entire lives exploring this. When Moses asked how God would like to be known when he presented his message of calling Israel out of Egypt, God replied…..”You shall say I AM sent you.”

Think about it. As things stand, when we minister to each other we are sharing the latest doctrine, our own agenda, our own stream. What the Key of David meetings are teaching us to do. What Jorge Pradas’s meetings were all about 30 years ago , was spending time with the I AM. What is the I AM up to today. Transplanting this ability to perceive God’s heart in individuals and churches is far more important and dovetails exactly with the revelation of Christ living out His life as you. They are the training ground which is then exported into the rest of people’s lives.

Nursing Course

In this year of recession which has caused many in the UK to lose their jobs and set about retraining, so as a consequence the university applications are at an all-time high....

we were wondering what would happen.

But yesterday the news came through that my wife Christine has a place with one of the Uk's top Nursing Training Universities : the University of Southampton.

This university is responsible for some of the most ground-breaking medical research .

Initially dubious of setting up a degree in nursing(Bachelor of Nursing BN) a few years ago, mainly because of a rather old school attitude to what nursing was, when they looked at what the intended curriculum was, they were to say the least gob-smacked.

Modern nursing is both a science and arts degree, containing medicine,physiology,psychology,healthcare,ethics,politics,law,spirituality,management,maths,chemistry,biology,some physics,social administration and much more.

Digging Deep with Mr P. by Stephanie McEntire

Reproduced from Facebook.

Digging Deep with Mr P.
"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? . . ." Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." John 4:11-1


The reason this scripture means so much to me today is because I was thinking of one of my patients Mr. P. He came into the clinic about 4 months ago straight from the hospital and still in his hospital gown. Never have I seen such visible misery on a face. His son and twin daughters brought there "rock' of a Dad in frail and near death. The Son was silent and confused having never seen his strong Father this way..and the daughters were doting and terrified. Mr. P was angry and he is a "facts" man. Dealing with him is like being at a constant inquisition..he forgets nothing you say..has a photographic memory of "procedure" and if you vary from it in any way...you will be called on the carpet. This isn't my first rodeo with "independents" who have lost all control of their life and three days a week put themselves in the hands of strangers ...who stick railroad spike size needles in their arm...while they watch their "life blood" be taken from them..while strapped to a chair for 4 hours. If the constant inquisition gives him a sense of peace and control..love tells me to turn the other cheek..so week after week I pulled up a chair for the inquisition. I knew eventually he would feel better and get quality of life back...patience was in order. We call them "patients" but really..we should be called that..bwahahaha.

Anyway..it's been months now and he is driving again..still suspicious and not sure he wants to continue this way..but my rotation keeps me in contact with him for at least one week out of the month..however I have been able to talk with every day and I do. I know love conquers all...I have a 100% success rate with that...

I am trained in a procedure called "button hole" which means that we stick the two needles in the same spot over and over until a tunnel into the blood stream is made. He was a perfect
candidate for that...due to his frailty it would cut down on infections. We approached him with this idea not thinking he would agree to it due to his mistrust of everything about this process...he states he is only staying alive for his kids who would be devastated if he did not try..he isn't a quitter. He agreed only if "I" would be the one to do the procedure. It takes 8 weeks to develop..I was ecstatic and honored that he asked for me. So..we are on week three of this and I still have the inquisition..but now we are getting down to "knowing" each other. Keep in mind that we are making a "tunnel" into the blood stream...we are basically digging a well....and guess what Mr. P was all his life...a well digger.

He tells me he started out with a shovel back in the day (he is in his 80's.) He worked hard and bought equipment as it became available and he could afford it. He built a huge business and was the major "digger" for all the rural areas in many counties. He has dug wells for many of the other patients in the clinic and they know him.
He has taught me a lot about what it takes to dig deep...to get to the water. In turn..I have used Jesus love of Parables to "dig deep" into Mr. P..to find that living water that he understands better than even I do...I have seen him changing.. coming back alive..in a sense greater than just existing..He gave the world water..and I get to return the favor by drawing out of my own well and giving him a drink...he likes that analogy. So do I.

So ..as I dig a tunnel into his "lifeblood" in more ways than one..he teaches me about perseverance or should I say we both teach each other...about the well that never runs dry..and that we will never thirst again...He went to the Casinos in Lousianna this weekend...and had a blast..the spring is flowing and he is living again..I am honored to watch my Jesus who dug that well for us a long time ago...begin to heal this man in ways my profession can never touch...and this scripture means more to me because of him...than just words on paper..It's a beautiful thing...isn't it?

Arthur Blessitt, The Cross,What's going on?

Arthur Blessitt as I heard him in 1972 Having heard this fiery preacher fearlessly leading hundreds to Christ in Trafalgar Square London 1972...I would have naturally kept Arthur travelling around the world speaking to masses. Job done. Obvious!But no...God gives him the specific , I believe, intercessory call to walk the cross around the globe. Makes no sense humanly. But if you understand intercession...a bit like when they marched silently first around Jericho...it makes all the sense in the world literally! Thirdly I was arrested by his last day of walking after 38 years. How he felt to lay down flat on the cross and fully identify with the death of Jesus. I was so excited to read that and it showed me a dimension that I just hadn't seen. By the 80s I had felt God say to me how important this Crosswalk was in opening the world up to the gospel. But what I hadn't seen until now is that there was a whole new level to it...and this is unique to our time .For the first time in history masses are going to understand "our identification with Christ " This affects our ability to walk things out. Only the privileged few understood this in time past...and Arthur's last act on the morning of the last day was so prophetically charged....because it was saying from now on we won't just understand the Cross for forgiveness of sins...but will understand that we died there...and from now on it's Christ living His Life out through us. It's like a fore runner of a whole burst of revelation that will run through the whole Earth!!! +++++++++++++++++++

So what's going on?

All over Facebook friends are talking about different aspects of what the Cross has done for us.

Dan Bowen has just done a post on the subject :the Cross ,without the resurrection and the ascension is meaningless. In answering him and agreeing with him,I saw that God has meticulously prepared us for what went on at the Cross. In relative terms, the death of Christ followed by His resurrection all took place within 3 days. If you were not in the vicinity, you would not have been aware of any of it. So for hundreds of years leading up to it, God instructed the Jews to set up a tabernacle so detailed, it was effectively a slow-motion, frame by frame account of what was going to be accomplished at Jerusalem. And then, if that was not enough, He then used someone who was only converted later, the Apostle Paul, who could not be diverted by any external aspects of living with Jesus for three years, to give a similar Holy Spirit Xray of the entire process from a Spirit point of view. We can catch this in the letters he wrote, and (if it was Paul also,) we can read more in the letter to the Hebrews. Key of David meetings can be like a titles sequence for a movie or documentary. They flag up what is about to occur....but often at the time, our understanding of the titles sequence can be pretty sketchy.If you know this blog, you know I have an agenda. But when I go into a key of David meeting or any Havant meeting, I drop this agenda and along with the others try to pick up what Jesus , the now Jesus, is saying. Through song, prophecies scriptures,sovereign waves of the Holy Spirit, He brings out the key threads of that meeting....and sometimes it may seem like nothing.

In 2008 I brought a word about the Father's house, but had no idea of its centrality in the months ahead. A year later I brought a song about the sound of God moving the heavenly furniture of His headquarters into its rightful place...the throne room. This word was behind the video series, and also the subject of Jack Fortenberry's book (unbeknown to him or me) "Corinthian Elders". I "hear" sounds of adjustments being made in the Body of Christ and ministry. Paul Noble has also prophesied about this in the Facebook group "Prophetic Voice" and is very much the subject of the last blogposts.

Some of the latest Key of David "smoke signals" have not been through me, but people like Hannah Morton and Peter Stott and Helen Rubio on the "the Lamb/Lion" and the "meaning of the Cross".

With this in mind I publish the Facebook conversation Lydia Grewell and I had as we first read Arthur Blessitt's gob-smacking account of his Cross Walk in his book The Cross.

I feel now is the time to share that the Cross is more than we ever knew.

It is a walk. It is life for us. It is meaning for us.

It unlocks everything that has eluded us. It is not religion. It is death. Very real death to what we thought was us.

But it is life for us. A very real practical down to earth faith life.

I do not hold with those who do not meet as the Church. This is as mad as a married couple saying,"I've got the marriage certificate,I do not need the marriage bed!"

We meet together now precisely because we have been fused all week with the Saviour.

We meet , because we can put everything down, and gather together exclusively with our Corporate Lover Jesus. And folks, smell those oils!!

But, Church, there is life outside of the bedroom. And this makes up the last 3 chapters or so of Song of Solomon. "Leaning upon our beloved as we come up out of the wilderness- FUSED with Him."

There is a Facebook Group I was told about today called Arthur Blessitt Official Site "The Cross" movie and Crosswalk.

I wrote about Arthur as an example of one who walks "in the order of Melchizedek" His publisher kindly emailed Lydia Grewell and myself after this post, offering us early copies of The Cross to review. It is not an easy task, because the book is what it is: strands and threads describing a wonderfully unique calling and intercession. Here is our conversation interspersed with a couple of extracts from the book:

Arthur writes: "THE SHADOW OF THE CROSS The cross is perhaps the most well-known symbol in the world. From its origin as an instrument of suffering and death it has become—through the suffering and death of Jesus Christ—a symbol of life, love, hope, and salvation. On the third day Jesus arose and ascended to the Father, and now he ever lives to make intercession for us. The good news of the gospel is focused on the cross and the shed blood of Jesus for our sins. I have had the humbling privilege of giving well over half my life to the calling of carrying the cross from nation to nation. I've walked tens of millions of steps. This has been a journey not just of walking, but of walking with a cross—feeling its weight and hearing people's love or reproach for the cross. Today, as I was thinking about this chapter, I took a walk with the cross. The sun was shining brightly, so I could see the shadow of me carrying the cross as I moved along the street. Tears filled my eyes as I remembered tough days in the jungles or deserts or war zones. I remembered walking in rain, in snow, in heat, and in cold. I remembered people coming to the cross and finding new life and salvation. And, yes, there have been rejections, but I choose not to magnify those occasions. In the shadow of the cross I have lived, traveled the world, raised seven children, and found welcome and love all around the world. I am encouraged by what Jesus is doing today. After having carried the cross in every nation, I can say that the world is open to and hungry for the good news of Jesus and the cross. The only problem is that the laborers are few, as Jesus said. As I complete this mission, I feel peace. Jesus is ruling and reigning in the world today. The church is triumphant, and people around the globe are welcoming Jesus. In the shadow of the cross you see firsthand the glorious kingdom of God all around the world. You see the suffering and resurrection of Jesus that have the power to set us free and change our lives. As followers of Jesus, we face great challenges. But Jesus is with us, and he has all power. I have also felt the agony of the cross as I walked among people suffering from war, hunger, injustice, and oppression. Tears often wash my face as I walk. The weight of the burden of the lost and suffering is heavier than the physical weight of the cross. Yet I walk on....." ******************************* more from this chapter "As I journey round the world,I find the cross to be a universal symbol of God's love that can be understood in spite of language and cultural barriers. One of the most wonderful responses came from Poland, where I carried the cross each year from 1981 to 1984. The welcome I received in Poland and the understanding the people had for me and this pilgrimage with the cross are the greatest I have ever known. When I looked into their lives, we connected instantly. They could see the struggle , the hurt, and the living faith in me, and i could feel their struggle and hurt and see their battle for faith." it, to be close to it, to touch it. The wonderful people of Poland had suffered greatly—and were still suffering—for their faith under the oppression of communism, and they were thrilled to see the symbol of their faith being carried through their country. I stood at a village church for two hours while a steady flow of people came in and cried. A sweet woman who helped the priest couldn't speak. The priest told me the Nazis cut out her tongue when she was in Auschwitz. She cried and cried. The cross meant so much to her. As I walked in a large open field, I could see people—thousands of people—coming across the field from every direction. They were running toward the cross. I couldn't believe my eyes. People left their work; they came on foot, on bicycles, in cars, on horses, and in wagons. They were crying, smiling, and laughing. It was awesome. At the edge of a wheat field, where the nearest house was at least half a mile away and the closest town farther away than that, a huge crowd gathered. Cars and trucks stopped on both sides of the road. The traffic jam must have stretched for half a mile. Crowds of people just kept coming as I walked through Poland. They filled churches and overflowed into the streets. Some drove many miles to see the man carrying the cross. People kissed the cross, and they kissed me! In the villages, people waited along the roadside for me to come to them. Word would spread, and masses of people would run across fields to see the cross. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Peter Stott of Havant astounded us last summer with recollections of helping drive the provided landrover down for Arthur as he prepared to go into Europe in the early 70s. Peter worked at this time supplying vehicles. Some 10 years before the existence of Havant Church, and while Peter was still up north. +++++++++++++++++++++++ Facebook conversation with Lydia Chris 7th Feb2009, if you've seen my post you'll know the Arthur Blessitt book has arrived, and I'm riveted. You know what might be cool is to share comments here, then cut and paste our conversation onto the blog. I'm only a few pages in but I already see so many parallels in the way he has been led and my own life. He has had this amazing singular calling, and the physical practics of his life have been so different. But the various tests he underwent in order to learn to do exactly what the Holy Spirit was telling him to do - I identify with that...also the friction it can cause in your environment....looking forward to getting right into it. Chris wrote at 09:52 on 13 February 2009 Have nearly finished Arthur's book. Reminds me of Forrest Gump without the disability. Talk about walking with history. will do more hopefully with you after 7days or so. Lydia 13th February Yeah, funny it does remind me of Forrest Gump kinda too I actually just got back into reading Arthur's book today, and am enjoying it.......... Chris 23rd February 2009 .I finished Arthur's book and I feel slightly overawed even trying to make any comments. Here are some of the things that hit me. The reality of following Jesus moment by moment...what I call operating in the Now experience of Jesus, this Priest who operates in the order of Melchizedek...knowing no beginning or end of days. Pulling all the strings on the right hand of. God the Father....running the whole show from heaven and mediating His plan through and in the Power of His Holy Spirit. Secondly, having heard this fiery preacher fearlessly leading hundreds to Christ in Trafalgar Square London 1972...I would have naturally kept Arthur travelling around the world speaking to masses. Job done. Obvious!But no...God gives him the specific , I believe, intercessory call to walk the cross around the globe. Makes no sense humanly. But if you understand intercession...a bit like when they marched silently first around Jericho...it makes all the sense in the world literally! Thirdly I was arrested by his last day of walking after 38 years. How he felt to lay down flat on the cross and fully identify with the death of Jesus. I was so excited to read that and it showed me a dimension that I just hadn't seen. By the 80s I had felt God say to me how important this Crosswalk was in opening the world up to the gospel. But what I hadn't seen until now is that there was a whole new level to it...and this is unique to our time .For the first time in history masses are going to understand "our identification with Christ "This affects our ability to walk things out. Only the privileged few understood this in time past...and Arthur's last act on the morning of the last day was so prophetically charged....because it was saying from now on we won't just understand the Cross for forgiveness of sins...but will understand that we died there...and from now on it's Christ living His Life out through us. It's like a fore runner of a whole burst of revelation that will run through the whole Earth!!! Fourthly...Perhaps the greatest simplest key of all How do you walk the Cross round the Earth/ complete the huge things God calls us all to do??? ONE STEP AT A TIME!!!! What has been hitting you in the book? Lydia Grewell wrote at 00:23 on 24 February 2009 Hey Chris I loved the same things as you Chris! I loved how he described walking through the fields and letting God tell him which way to go, even though he already knew the most straight and sensible path. I so appreciated that part that God told him he was in training. I had a similiar couple of things this past summer where I felt compelled to go a certain route in my car one day and I was filled with joy, I had no idea where I was going or why, but I just knew God wanted me to. This happened a few times and I sensed it was God preparing me to listen to his directions. So to me this was awesome to get confirmation of by reading Arthur's testimony! I also loved the whole aspect of one step at a time. God is the I am, the God of the now.....each day has enough troubles of it's own right! So to hear his whole life journey, which was HUGELY profound, that he just focused on ~ one step at a time was a wonderful truth and example for others. God has been helping me to remember to be faithful in the little and to follow him day by day! I didn't get through the book, so didn't read the part about him laying on the cross, but when I read it in your comment it really struck me as profound, seriously. I pictured our death with Jesus by picturing myself on that Cross.....it's so true, most do not know that they died, their old adamic nature died with Christ! So to see this with a visual is WAY COOL!!! Thanks!! I must go finish the book........Peace to you Chris!! Chris About Arthur's book. Didn't you see the correlation with Forrest Gump? Whereas Forrest Gump was not screwed up by a great intellect...and is a story...Arthur has willingly chosen to lay his own ideas aside and rigorously follow God's calling...yet finding the same thing..that he has literally walked into the history books...or rather, walked in a Gump fashion into the frames of historic events, without being recorded as such. If you read Brother Andrew "Light Force" you will find a similar walk. About 10 years before the rest of the world he was identifying the rise of the extremist muslims. Nobody else saw the impact of the threat to come. Similar "nation-bending" activities are happening through Nicholas and Pam right now. I found Arthur's meetings with USA presidents together with his impact on Arafat, and iin Burundi absolutely amazing. Lydia Grewell I read a bit more last night.....yes I see it the correlation, I hadn't read up to the point where he had been in all those situations with Pat Roberston in the (1980)March, and Yasser Arafat and Billy Graham, in our prior chat.......the more I read the more I am so blessed and amazed and really provoked even!! This guy had his gaze so fixed on Jesus and was so determined to walk out his calling.........Wow!! He sure got an aerial view/big picture of the world huh? The movie will be wonderful and powerful, I truly hope!! Hope to read more today.............. Lydia Grewell wrote at 15:43 Chris, I haven't finished the book yet, but was able to get done 2 more chapters, and boy does it just keep getting better! I read the chapter where Arthur talks about sharing Jesus with all kinds of people and I just love his humility and his heart, what an example!! Chris Welch wrote That chapter was so great. It is amazing that after 38,000 miles of sharing Jesus in 38 years…Arthur Blessitt has found that people do not have a problem with Jesus. They have a problem with the church…or with Christianity as practised. I like it when Mark Stibbe said Jesus began his ministry in a wedding feast providing wine at a banquet….and His current ministry hasn’t changed much!!!! It was a bit like that today in both our meetings. I haven’t a clue any more whether I would call them 2nd or 3rd level meetings. All I know is that since the Florida Outpourng Havant meetings have been like golden honey poured down on everybody. Back to the book I was reading the beginning again. Actually that is where the report of his final day of the journey is.But you can see how from the beginning, he like all of us put up these walls as to what we can and can’t do. Then the festival organiser says “I’m in charge here and sure you can come up on stage and preach. Then in the chapter There are No Walls you see how Arthur went absolutely everywhere….though the Israelis said the Arabs won’t let you pass. And the Arabs said the Israelis won’t let you pas. And people said “You’ll never get on the Great Wall of China….and you’ll never get into North korea! etc etc What an encouragement. Today when I was reading about his second wife receiving dreams and visions about many lands….but no missionary organisation would take her because she’d not done Bible college. And I thought again “We don’t have to submit to restrictions….our only mandate is to believe for the Melchizedek Order….to believe for the real stufff….though the fake seems so enticing.” And sure enough God only teams her up with one of the most significant ministries of the 20th Century…..even though no one else would have her. I still get a kick out of how God sent some of the most significant people of 1973, still under an amazing anointing and vision, all the way from Houston to our little old grammar school near London. Chris Welch wrote at 23:22 And since that time I've always been encouraged to believe for the totally outlandish!!!! There are loads of books on ministry and doctrine...but how good to learn from one who has spent his whole life doing it. Just about every page of Arthur's book is packed with extraordinarily useful real life stuff about walking with Jesus and being used to share the love message of Jesus. +++++++++++++++++++++ Arthur writes in "Roads of Glory" If you asked me to close my eyes and say what comes to my mind when I think about walking with the cross around the world, it would be the faces of those who gather around the cross. The faces are of many colors, and the people speak hundreds of languages. They may be smiling or they may be weeping, but they know that they are feeling the presence of the Lord. I am not saying that I am holy or that the wood of the cross itself is holy; but I am saying the hand of God is upon this walk, and people experience his glory as the word spreads that the cross is coming down the road. Time and again I have seen people come in anger but melt into tears as they draw near to me and the cross. Hundreds of thousands of people have touched the cross or me and rubbed themselves as if they are blessed just by the touch. They feel something they have never felt before. I stop with every group and proclaim that it is Jesus who blesses and saves, and I share how to invite him into their lives. The glory of the Lord touches people, because the Holy Spirit of God is present in such a way that they are drawn to the cross and Jesus. Even individuals who are devoted to other religions experience the miracle of God's glory that travels on the road with the cross and me. They feel love and mercy in a way they have never felt before. Only God knows people's hearts, but millions have heard the message of Jesus and prayed to receive him. I often speak of the bubble of glory that seems to surround the cross, me, and anyone with me on a trip. Many say they have seen a glow surrounding the cross. But for sure I know that when people get within fifty to one hundred feet of the cross they are aware of the glory of God. They may not describe it in those terms, but they feel something within. Many get goose bumps or cry or break into a smile. I have seen people who were coming to attack me, raging in anger, become totally calm as they draw near the cross. Hard hearts often melt. Time and again I have said to tough men full of hurt and anger, "Here, feel the weight of the cross." As they lift the cross, the power of the Holy Spirit breaks through, and I lead them in prayer as they weep. Brokenhearted people weeping with pain and grief have been healed as we talk and pray. I always say, "Jesus did it. Jesus drew them. Jesus saved them. Jesus is present in the glory of God that the people feel." These people come from every walk of life. They are battle-hardened soldiers who melt before the cross with tears in their eyes. They are old women and little children, eating, smiling, and feeling the love and glory of God as they gather around the cross. It is the glory of the Lord on the battlefields, along the roadsides, and in the homes and churches of the world. The glory is present when I just walk down the road. I know that I have a glory team at all times: God who is Father, God who is Jesus, and God who is Holy Spirit! This thought alone is enough to set my feet dancing on a hot road in the desert. The following stories give specific examples of experiencing the roads of glory as the cross is carried around the world…….   the Amazon reference is here

A timely letter to my Ghanaian Evangelist friend

"Name"
The money has been dispatched.
Thankyou for phoning in such a timely fashion.

It is important that you hold to all the Word that God has been building into you.
It is important that you continue to wait on the Holy Spirit when you gather with others,
knowing the importance of entering God's Presence with taking time over ministering to Him first,
then delivering the Word out of that Presence.

These are all key foundations that already mark you out among others.

When believers see differences the devil will always want to maximise these and seek to divide,
and also make all discussion " either or"
-either you accept all of this and reject everything you know so far.....that is his tactic.He is a liar
and not to be trusted.

With God it is always Yea and Amen and "Both ....and" ...."not either ...or."

So the above Spirit foundations I support in you.

http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2010/02/order-of-hoy-spirit.html explores some of
the main differences in the order of the Holy Spirit, to the traditional one man ministry
approach of the Pentecostal minister in the last 100 years.

Real transfer of God's life is so powerful when we do things God's way, that you get people
like Paul who were powerful enough to turn whole regions upside down.

At the moment working on 2/3 of the gospel, that is "asking Jesus into your life"
and "being baptised in the Spirit" it is exhausting. For every Morris Cerullo crusade
and Rheinhardt Bonnke crusade and Benny Hinn crusade you get
people stunned by God's miraculous power, you get people saved and filled with
the Spirit
but really poor teaching on Romans 1-8 and Ephesians and Colossians.
People do not know they have died.
People think they have to "do" things to grow as a Christian, instead of knowing
actually "they" don't have to do anything ever again. They are dead. And dead people
don't do anything. It is now purely about Christ doing stuff through them.

And if nothing much happens. The answer is not another Morris Cerullo chivvying meeting
to get them fired up again, the answer is laying another "gift of revelation" in them as to
how Christ is now their life.

The "leaven of the Kingdom" is so powerful that 2 birthing 2 birthing 2 and so on just 20
times already comes to 1,048,576.

The reason evangelists get tired out ,asking for more and more money is they
do not birth Christians into real Spirit churches
so anybody that DID ask Jesus into his life has just been bewitched by a Galation church
back into believing you have to "do things". Jesus PLUS something is the gospel.
NO....in the Spirit....as soon as you say Jesus Plus circumcision....you break the electrical
circuit. The believer becomes still-born. He never grows. He never becomes Christ in his form,
so he or she cannot reproduce Christ. They are the very thing that Christ condemned
"You travel a hundred miles to make a convert, and you make him twice the son of hell that you are."

The Pentecostal model is crazy. You have a Pastor in charge of a church, in a similar way
to the Jews who had a high priest.
This is the model of the New Cart.
This is the African Village Elder New Cart model with a Pentecostal badge.
Like Matthew Ashimolowo. Or the Action pastor.

This is not in the Bible.
The Church has elders who know about Christ being their life and the heavenly
realities of how things work....like faith....like praise.....like using spiritual gifts...

which they impart into others as quickly as possible. All the spiritual gifts
and ministries flow together as the Spirit moves.

But a black African in tie and smart jacket ruling over a congregation as
a man in charge, calling himself a pastor comes straight out of the kingdoms of this world.

Similar with black apostles. What they mean by apostle is the
organizing ability to arrange for large gatherings of people to hear
them speak exciting stuff and see them perform a few miracles as the star showman.
This is not an apostle. Even Stephen in the New testament could do much of this.But he knew better.

(Understand the white man is even less developed....not even understanding baptism in the Spirit
and just having a purely human organisation....so even more like a devil pyramid builder!!)

If you can imagine two direction arrows diverging ever wider apart, that is now how things are in the Kingdom.
The 2nd level Ishmael model of a Spirit-filled church which in reality is a bunch of genuine Spirit-filled people
being manipulated Ishmael style into "the outward appearance of a church",

as compared with the 3rd level model of a church of mature believers who understand the apostles'
revelation in the Bible, who are mature in their own right....either going out to form new churches
in the pure grace of God, or exercising greater and greater rule in their localities in their jobs,
their surroundings......but all as a "genuine Isaac - the child of Promise" and not a manipulation
from one man, seeking to look good by having a lot of people beneath him in a pyramid.


I realise this probably comes as a shock to you, "Name". But having been prepared for years
in a hidden way, I'd hate for you to lose everything by being a Morris Cerullo ministry when everything has moved
on, with groups of apostles now ministering together like in the days of Acts.

If you cannot get to places of revival like IHOP Kansas which is happening right now,
I'd love you to start getting a revelation of this new way of operating....which is like you
do already....but instead of being just you, there is a whole room of people behaving just like you.
Maybe they haven't got the evangelistic gifting you have,and they actually need you for that,
but they have lots of things you don't yet have. The next Key of David Conference
is March 18th -20th http://www.portsdowncc.org.uk/news.htm

Blessings
Chris

The Order of the Holy Spirit

One Hundred years ago something started to shift.
Something seismic happened, which the devil wanted to make sure never happened again.
So , in direct response, his ragings increased something like 10 fold. History is now there for everyone to see, but in the space of one short century, lest we concentrate any more time and energy to what just happened in Wales and Azusa Street and the Black Forest in Germany, he pulled and nudged and guided and directed left-brain locked humans:
into two world wars
inwhich callous generals sent wave after wave of human flotsam into the path of new killing machines in trench warfare
he inspired men to think it a good idea to arrange for themselves an Acts paradise of shared property and possessions without new birth and by superimposition from above in the name of atheism (Communism by way of Marx)
and to do this in such a way that in both Russia and China the biggest swathes of indiginous population up until this date were simply vaporised at the whims of dictator leaders.

Using age-old spiritism on one side and a hubristic left-brain hook-up on the other, he inspired the cleverest nation on earth to think they were weaving for themselves a completely new salvation that somehow involved the Aryan race, and the destruction of every living Jew in range by means of a clever mass organised purpose-built infrastructure that involved gas ovens.
And so the century continued, interspersed with other huge scale disasters such as the 1918 flu pandemic which killed more than the rest of the First World War.

Through the direct cat and mouse influence of one totally given to his schemes, the devil-inspired Chairman Mao Tse Tung, the Americans were drawn in hook line and sinker to a war that was impossible to win in Vietnam.

Meanwhile, the pincer movement back in the west was to so use the domestic disillusionment caused by this raging to further lock people up in their left-brains, such that by now all intelligentsia were now continuing in the very thought processes that had led up to the second world war in Germany..."the fact that clearly God was dead", "church was finished" and all that remained was the French philosophic movement of Sartre and Camus and existentialism. I was in University at the very tail end of this and read every so often of another student's death as in direct logical conclusion, another would hurl him or herself to her death off a high building.

So what was this thing that the devil was so sure he did not want further investigated?

Listen! It wasn't just the rediscovery of the baptism in the Spirit and the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit as principally outlined in 1 Corinthians 12-14, and referred to continuously if not obliquely at several points in Acts, as well as phrases such as "laying on of hands" in Timothy, and "powers of the age" to come as in Hebrews.

No.Something far greater was happening on the floor through Evan Roberts. Something that has scarce been mirrored since through nearly 100 years of programmed, progressive Pentecostal effort.

It was a COMPLETELY new Order. The Order of the Holy Spirit.
Where the One actually sent to prepare a Bride for the Son was allowed to fulfil His task, probably for the first time in such a corporate way since the Book of Acts was first written.

Now although, initially , in Wales at least, it was only one man who really got this order, who really understood how to move with it, a man called Evan Roberts, IT was Never
I repeat Never
I repeat Never
the Holy Spirit's intention to ever again raise up another human pyramid around a charismatic man,
a charismatic leader,
who would continue the line that the devil began in the garden
after his own order
which always involves pyramids of power based on the most willing to fall into line with his whims.
The devil only understands pyramids.
It's how he runs his own unseen kingdom.
Anyone falling into line with his unseen kingdom will build according to this pyramid.
The most obedient will look like the Italian mafia. Or Chinese Chairman Mao. Or Russian Lenin and worse still Stalin.
The less obedient will look like
Bill Johnson
Joseph Prince
Morris Cerullo
Benny Hinn
Yongghi Cho
Terry Virgo
Frank Viola
People who cultivate a culture that revolves around them. Without meaning to.
Simply because they have never learned to listen to the prophetic.
That somewhere within them is a blueprint of "the fathers" and how they have always run things, rather than being diligent to seek out how the Holy Spirit runs His church
as laid out in new books appearing by people like Jack Fortenberry (Corinthian Elders).
And with each new insight or angle, these other charismatic dazzlers write a book in their name which further cements
the idolatrous notion of a symbiotic relationship in the people of God.

Remember, the same spirit that works in unbelievers to call the Apostle Paul Zeus one minute, then when he refuses to play ball, they stone him,
is the same spirit at work in the church....
To the extent that the "independant self delusion is not dealt with". (See the rest of the contents of this blog or read the link to Norman Grubb's book "Yes I am".)

If I may I will write that again.
To the extent that a gathering of believers do not believe or are muzzy about who they are now since the Cross, is the extent they are still able to be manipulated by the spirit that takes its blueprint from the devil's pyramid order.

So God has instituted a way of running things
that does not involve a Pastor at the head of it.
That does involve apostles and elders.
But obliquely and subtly.
Like Evan Roberts.

If you can understand how a man can run things face down on the floor.
Then you can understand the New Order.
If you can understand how a man can run things by appearing to do nothing directly then you can start to understand a third level church.
If you can understand Moses standing on a hillside with a battle raging, with two men at his side lifting his arms....then you are starting to see it.
If you can see a group of men kind of piggybacking each other in a kind of tag game, delivering the Word in sequence , in the sequence the Holy Spirit shows, as the Holy Spirit gives utterance and all in the powerful Presence of the Holy Spirit

such as we saw oh so briefly in the London brothers at Friends meeting House in 1974-5.
As we saw oh so briefly at the beginning of their influence in the 70s, the brothers in Fort Lauderdale , Derek Prince,Don Basham,Ern Baxter,Bob Mumford etc.that so radically changed the way we did things in Britain.

If you can see the outbreak in Toronto in 1994, and understand that although it appeared to revolve around the couple John and Carol Arnott- THAT WAS NOT THE SUM OF ITS STRUCTURE.

If you can start to see in the Spirit what He was wanting to start doing through the platforms of Lakeland ,Florida in 2008.....and those who were there, it was not simply to build around the one man flame thrower Todd Bentley, although we must honour him as the fire-starter...well this end of heavenly proceedings...

But an order was starting to form. The same order that would have matured a hundred years earlier if Evan Roberts not been knocked out of the flow.

Yes God uses ministries. Men and women. Yes there is a sort of structure to things. Kind of familial. Yes there is mutual respect. Actually it is more like a dance in the flow of the Holy Spirit.

But once people actually understand what a ministry before God is. Once people understand the first ever post I wrote which can be found in Dan's Vaults and on his site....which was the words of Ed Miller.
A ministry is just a taxi driver to the throne of God. Once he has brought a believer there, his role is finished.

Ministry, and in particular 3rd level apostolic ministry is simply the presentation of Christ as a believer. Laying the foundation of Christ AS that person in a believer.
Ripping away the false delusion of an independant self, so that a human being can begin for the first time to live as was always his or her destiny....knowing Christ in them as them.

The point of what we are calling the Key of David way of running meetings is that believers experience this new order.
That they learn how to function in it, as was happening in Florida, and now appears to be continuing in IHOP Kansas.

All the men in the ministry list above are people with a David heart. Yongghi Cho even calls himself David.
But the first David, probably through exhuberance, and a lack of due diligence

returned the Ark to Jerusalem on a New cart. He was returning to "the fathers way of doing things"...by this I mean, not his spiritual fathers...because he would have then known to do it right, according the Levitical pattern...
No I mean "fathers" in the generic sense.
The way the world does things. The humanly expected method. The way that does not involve knowing the heavenly pattern. The default "pyramid" pattern that was drawn up by the father of lies. The one that does not involve relationship. Sensitivity.

A pattern which may not reveal itself straight away, but one that emerges pretty soon in the form of anger, frustration, fear, domination, and ultimately if not corrected
ICHABOD - the Glory is gone.

I believe when we receive revelation and the manner we receive revelation to be important. Like the heaps of stones, the waymarkers of the patriarchs.

I received the revelation of the New Cart way of doing things, the incorrect way, in precisely this context. Now God never allowed me to bring what I was seeing, He used me to bring something else. But it all surrounded, funnily enough in the context of this post, Wales.

I was in a Cinderella role in a Welsh Conference quietly helping out with some children's work. Actually not in the meetings at all. This was around 1983. There was an oppression affecting all of us. One aspect to it was some kind of Jezebel spirit coming through the women as well as control I guess coming through the men.
So the leader doing the kid's work and myself really gave ourselves to intercession. Actually we had no choice. Our guts were gripped by such an intense feeling of helplessness and powerlessness, and here we were trying to look a bit encouraged for the conference kids. Precisely then, and in that conference did I then get this whole gripping revelation about charismatics bringing the Ark back home on a New cart. But it is not until this blogin the last 2 years, that I have seen so clearly what we have been doing.
As soon as I got this clear breakthrough in revelation, the very next morning absolutely everybody was called into the main hall to seek God together. God used me to give a breakthrough prophetic word for the conference. I think that was my first in a conference setting. It was a clear prophetic promise concerning the significance of that conference for the whole of Wales. At that time there was so little happening in Wales as compared with England.

A breakthrough Word sets the tone of a conference or meeting. It is like an invasion of the Kingdom of God into what may have felt up until then quite a staid, normal human gathering, with nothing happening.

I am sharing this, not to draw attention to myself, but simply to say this post has already had accompanying signs to it. The material is not new, although it comes with greater clarity.
If we want the glory of God to return to God's House, we have to learn to do things according to the heavenly pattern and be extra diligent about not building any more symbiotic Zeus Clubs.
********************
This post was nudged by this Facebook post below and my personal desire to nail exactly what my misgivings are with people being so evidently used by God like Bill Johnson and Rob Rufus and Joseph Prince.
New Creation Church Is NOT A Cult!Share
Stanley Wong
Sunday, 07 February 2010 at 23:30
For the past few weeks, I have been playing Joel Osteen's DVD sermon, "A New Season of God's Mercy (Favour)", at my stall over and over again. Last Saturday, a first-time customer saw the DVD sermon and warned me to be careful of his teachings. She learnt that I was from NCC and immediately gave me a disapproving look and told me to "be careful of these cults; their teachings are not based on the bible". She also said that the preachers are promoting themselves only.

Despite she being my customer, I could not resist telling her off. I told her that she can disagree with NCC's teachings but she cannot label NCC as a "cult". It seems that the term "cult" is freely thrust upon any church that does not seem to conform to the preaching or theologies of mainstream/traditional churches, especially if the church in question does not belong to any recognized denomination. I'm sure that Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals and other denominations differ and disagree with one another on certain aspects of theology but you don't hear their church members labeling the other churches as cults.

Since 17 Dec 2008, I have been regularly attracting hits on my blog through google search. Anyone want to venture a guess on the googled keywords? Yes, you've guessed right: "new creation church cult" (see picture, left) and the reason why google direct them to my blog is because of the article I posted on 17 Dec 2008 - "Is New Creation Church a cult?".


In that post, I reprinted an article which described the characteristics of a cult, and I think it is worthwhile to reiterate the key points of that article here:

1. A cult, by modern standards, is any group that incorporates mind control to deceive, influence and govern its followers.

2. The mind control, or brainwashing, exerted by cults often take the form of at least several of the following elements:

a) A totalitarian control over the lifestyle and time of its members - Many cults tend to dictate exactly what its followers should read, eat, how and with whom they should spend their time, and even what they should do in off hours. This totalitarian control is necessary for the leaders to indoctrinate the followers in everything they do, and is also an attempt to separate them from anything not associated with the cult. This is why cults often live together in groups.

b) A charismatic, self-appointed leader with complete authority - Cult members are taught not to question the teachings, practices, or ideas of the leader. Many cult leaders truly are charismatic people, and are able to influence people to believe them. One very clear identifying element dealing with the leader of a cult is that the leader will always focus the attention and veneration of the members upon himself or herself. At the heart of a cult usually lies a very self-centered and self-seeking person.

c) A focus on withholding truth from non-members - Many cults teach their followers to be completely open and truthful within the group, while at the same time they are encouraged to be secretive and evasive when questioned by people outside of the group. Only specially-commissioned members are appointed to recruit members from outside. New members are usually encouraged to keep silent or even lie, especially to their families and close friends.

The three elements listed above are very successful ways to create a group mentality, an us-against-them way of looking at things. This is essential for any cult that wants to keep its members. The more afraid of the outside world the members become, the more strongly and faithfully they will keep within the safe fold of the cult.



I regularly attend New Creation Church's Sunday worship service together with my family and about 19,000 other people, and from my personal experience, I can tell that we are not a bunch of tightly controlled zombies worshiping Pastor Prince. Pastor Prince himself has also encouraged us not to just blindly accept everything he says but to check his preaching with what we read in the bible for ourselves.


Pastor Prince's sermon CDs are available for sale at the Rock bookshop and on the online store, and those sermon CDs, which date from the year 2000 and represent hundreds of hours of preaching, are easily accessible to any critic who wish to mine for any evidence of Pastor Prince preaching heresy or focusing the attention and veneration of the members upon himself.

Sad to say, many of these critics shoot their mouths off based on hearsay rather than examining the evidence at the source. At this juncture, let me express my utmost respect for Pastor Kenny aka blogpastor who, in his blog post "Give Joseph Prince A Fair Hearing", said "Pastors should not just go by hearsay and what they read of others’ comments, but actually go to the source and give Joseph Prince a fair hearing: read his books or listen to his tapes. Put down your guns and set aside the warning label called “antinomian” for the time being, roll the sleeves, and do some honest research."

Without a doubt, Pastor Prince is a charismatic preacher but I challenge anyone to produce evidence of Pastor Prince preaching a sermon which promotes only himself. Every Sunday, we hear Pastor Prince preach only Christ and His finished work on the cross. Of course, not everyone agrees with all that he preaches, and over the years there have been people who left NCC because they could not accept his preaching but looking at how NCC has almost doubled from 10,000 members in 2004 to 19,000 today, it is obvious that many more have come than left. However, my point is not to boast about NCC's church growth but to highlight the fact that NCC's members are FREE to come and go, which certainly is NOT the characteristic of a cult.

About 2 weeks ago, a customer patronised my stall. I chatted with him and discovered that he also attends NCC. He said, "Coming to NCC was the best thing that happened in my life." He is not the only one to feel that way. I also feel the same and hearing the testimonies read in church every Sunday, I know quite a few others from America, Europe and other parts of the world feel the same too. Again, my point is not to boast about NCC but to highlight the fact that for every critic out there who objects to and disapproves of Pastor Prince's preaching, there are many more whose lives have been transformed for the better because their eyes have been opened through his sermons.

Am I asking you to agree with Pastor Prince's preaching? NO! I am asking you to listen to Pastor Prince's sermons and read his books for yourself before you condemn him, NCC and its members!! Don't you dare call NCC a cult without producing any evidence to support your accusation!!!

My reply and that of Geraldine Tan -Wee
Chris Welch The drawback with Pastor Prince is not Pastor Prince.The drawback is that it is like Acts 2 but with only Peter preaching.Now we know he was the first preacher, but he stood up with the other 11 surrounding him, and all of them were used to preach from house to house and probably in ongoing meetings. Pastor Prince as wide as he is on the very key subject of grace, needs the other 11, who have received the other revelations in God's Word. It would be like only feeding on Rob Rufus of Hong Kong or Ern Baxter in the 70s without all the other 70s preachers. Things Pastor Prince does not preach on yet, presumably because he hasn't met them yet, is "the dark night of the soul, and Romans 7 from this perspective, the Total exchange that took place at the Cross, and how we live our lives now Christ as me in my form, with my personality. He has that joy to come!!!
Today at 11:03 · Chris Welch But he is not a cultleader!
Today at 11:05 · Chris Welch For more light on all this read Jack Fortenberry's new book "Corinthian Elders". See my blog or Amazon
Today at 11:07 · Geraldine Tan-Wee The thing is this- the Holy Spirit teaches all things. PP(Pastor Prince, she means.Call no man father...or anything else for that matter! Receive them for their gift , yes, but the fruit is not your lips, it is actually hearing, understanding, and doing what they bring that you become a Living letter describing what they were bringing - then move onACW) does not have exclusive insight because the same teacher that teaches Him, teaches us. That said, some people have greater discernment than others. We all have the same source of wisdom, but not every one taps into it.

IMHO Why PP is a good pastor is because he boldly preaches grace without letting the naysayers faze him. And I am glad that he has a group of very good pastors (after 37 years of this stuff, this is a very chilling phrase indeed ACW)that also provide very interesting insight into the Word. Because most the sermons from our church that is shown overseas is that of our senior Pastor (just as Hillsong's is Brian Houston, CHC's is Kong Hee and Lakewood's is Joel Osteen, etc.) you have not met our other anointed pastors- Ps Matthews, Ps Gabriel, Ps Mark, Ps Lian, Ps Keith, Ps Christina, Ps Lawrence, Ps Benjamin, Ps Daniel, Ps Barnabas Kim, Ps Henry, Ps Darren, Ps Wee Soo Teck, Ps Joshua, .... hey! What do you know? That's more than 11 other pastors that share the pulpit and help lead the church along with him! =)

What is good is that he doesn't just feed the church members, he teaches them how to study the bible (and the writings of other grace based writers) in the right context. Most NCC-ers are able to discern the Word and study the Word in depth because sermons in NCC do go into the original Hebrew and Greek of the Word, as well as touch on biblical symbols and types. ... See more

And yes he is NOT a cult leader. I can still make my mind up about everything in my life. A cult leader won't allow that. =)

Today at 11:30 · ReportChris Welch It is very good that you write and make clear what is not clear to external televised audiences. Thankyou. I feel strongly the Holy Spirit is not letting your church off the hook though and I have tried to put it down in a long post here. Please understand I am not into destructive criticism.What the Holy Spirit is always doing is Yea and Amen ... ...Ever since the the 70s in our home town revival here in 72, followed by reading about Mel Tari, then subsequent meetings in London...I see the continuation of another order entirely emerging.
http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2010/02/order-of-hoy-spirit.html
17 minutes ago ·

How Do You Organise a Key of David Meeting?

YOU Don't

Key of David notes

There are many gatherings going on under different names
all over the world.
These meetings are of increasing significance
When Jesus commanded the disciples to wait in
Jerusalem until they received the promise of the Spirit
these meetings were NOT a suggestion.
There was a weight of significance about this particular period
that was not a take it or leave it affair.

Key of David meetings , as with our main meetings have a significance to them. I have had a similar impression at key points in my history.

The small home meetings waiting on God in Grimsdells Lane ,Amersham. (73-75)
Hearing 2 specific messages by Mother Basilea Schlink in Darmstadt after she had been away fasting and praying. (This was against a backdrop of Chairman Mao poised to invade Europe….referred to again in the Jung Chang Mao book)
The Lakes,Dales and Capel Bible Weeks with Ern Baxter mid 70s.
Many of the Emsworth meetings early 80s when there had been a breakthrough in the area of praise, and then worship. Many of the
same people now lead Havant.

There is an acceleration.
Key of David meetings are about learning a language.
A language of love.
A language between the Bride and Her Groom Jesus.
Bible passages and verses are continually referred to
but in the form of something you are walking together into…
like halls in the Palace of the King. In Key of David meetings
you experience Living scripture.

Jesus speaks through prophecy, through song, through
silence, through racket…through all of the same…
in your heart…then precisely the same thing through a believer
across the room…or perhaps not the same expression of something
but the same key burden or tenor of what they are saying….in the same
way that a Welsh translation is always longer, more poetic, more singsong than the English equivalent.

Tonight was about the Bride straightening up…not being ashamed…having her
spine straightened and strengthened….about to be presented by Her Lover
to the world. That which has been secret for so long, presented for others to
Wow over. It was about the revelation of the Cross, and the Lamb in the throne room of heaven.
It was about how we have had many Christian concepts such as joy, such as
the Cross, such as the Armour of God….but now was the time for revelation about all of these. Rock solid revelation experiences which would change our lives now….and for the rest of our lives.

Now , everything I’ve written is in black and white and it is information. If a married couple ever shared their intimacies in a written report, it would come over in the same way. Pretty meaningless. About the same as when wives ask their husbands what went on at a meeting.

You have to be in a Key of David meeting, just as you have to experience a drama or a film. You can describe the bare bones of the plot…but it means very little.

Most of secular life is conducted in this dry, waterless place of our left-brain frontal cortex. We approach Christ in this way. But He undermines us by saying “He loves us.” Him loving us is not a doctrine, it is something you experience. Key of David meetings are where people come out of their left-brain cages to experience the Life and touch of the Living Christ.

Sometimes bodies are healed instantly. Minds.Emotions.Traumas.

But they are not healing meetings. They are where the Bride meets with her Christ. Jesus sets the agenda. They are about Him.

They are not worship meetings or praise meetings per se. So for this reason songs are not necessarily finished. The song is not important. Musicians are not there to look good. They are purely functional. And the function is to love Jesus. Just that.
They are corporate versions of the language Madame Guyon uses in Experiencing the Depths of Jesus Christ, where she says you start with a scripture, or song or prayer, and you roll it around…but you are not there for any of those things…you are just seeking to be joined with your Lover.

Saints, we’ve spent millennia trying to get an intellectual fix on God, on Jesus,on the Holy Spirit….but we’ve not operated in what Jesus was always looking for. He said,”the time will come when those who worship me will worship in Spirit and Truth.”

This does not mean we will worship in intellectually truthful ways….
it means if Joy is the subject, then you will really be manifesting the joy of Christ Himself…not some intellectual description of that joy.

It means when you put on the armour of God (one of tonight’s themes) you are not putting on an intellectual description of the armour for you to muse on…but there and then in the Spirit you are operating the spiritual reality of a Sword…which is the Word of God….and with the same reality as a lightsabre say in the fictional Star Wars. And each of the armour objects are perceived suddenly for what they are…REAL…POWERFUL….and something coming down from above by the Spirit.
***************************************
The Havant Meridian Centre Conference is filling fast. These Conferences are run like an extended version of a Key of David meeting.

More details on Key of David can be found here:
http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2008/11/havantparchmentsigning-register.html

http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2010/02/another-angle-on-key-of-david.html

Faith is saying something has happened and knowing something has happened.

This is a Facebook Conversation and the post title comes from Nancy Gilmore and later Eamon McMullan


Nancy Gilmore "Faith is saying something has happened" Norman GrubbYesterday at 04:20 · You, Eamon McMullan, Megan Anne Fey and 4 others like this.
Matthew Campbell Amen. It's called Good News and news speaks of something that has already happened.

I got that from Malcolm Smith. :)
Yesterday at 04:23Megan Anne Fey Wonderful Nancy.
Yesterday at 04:24Stacey Robbins ooh...like, like, like!
Yesterday at 04:35Nancy Gilmore Amen Matthew! & Megan! Thank you!

I think in this which Norman was speaking here had to do with us making things happen for others. This is this third level living where we know our union, and declare a thing as God. Norman was talking about faith- "is applied inner choice" -where we act as God! We declare the word of God's Power. Think of the ... See moreauthority! We make things happen for others; it's according to my word. I speak a word of faith; it's specific; and I say this or that HAS HAPPENED.

When I first started speaking a word of faith for others, I looked like a false prophet; that was many years ago! I never stopped speaking this truth for others, and God establishes us in this reality of speaking as Him concerning another. Now I say, specifically, what I would like to see happen for another! The first step, I find out what it is I really wish to see happen; and then I say so! I say 'this' (and I name what it is!), is what God is doing concerning this person, or that person. Once I know what to say, I say this has happened!
Yesterday at 05:08Elmarie Botha Wonderful Nancy!
Yesterday at 05:31Nancy Gilmore Thank you Stacey and Elmarie!
Yesterday at 05:49Chris Welch I have had tomorrow's breakfast!
Yesterday at 14:11 · Eamon McMullan "Faith is knowing something has happened" me
Yesterday
Chris Welch Here's a genuine question without any "angle" to it. Many including Norman came into speaking a Word of faith" outside of the charismatic movement. Excuse my ignorance...but how would it have worked say when Norman and Rees Howells got together. Would they have just discussed together then got an inner confirmation as they chatted? I really only know how it works in a praising church setting. So we begin focussing on God as a group of God's people. Sometimes it's quite a struggle to begin with. Then often you get this sense of breaking through into another realm...beyond the battle if you like. And in this area God speaks very clearly. Often there is an accompanying sense of victory....and you all feel inside you as though it's a done thing!!! And only a matter of time before it manifests. One of the most stunning events was when the Word came about the Yorkshire Ripper, who had been evading capture and sneering at the police for months and months, and one by one another would be murdered. Within hours of that very meeting he was slammed in jail!
Yesterday at 17:09 · Nancy Gilmore Thanks Eamon!

Yesterday at 17:48Nancy Gilmore Chris, thank you! Interesting how God walks differently in and as us; (particularly you and I); since I have not been involved in any 'church group setting', as you describe it, since 1975; when the Lord spoke to me and said, I was to come out from that and He would walk in me. So this has been my adventure of faith since then in regard to what He is doing as me. He cut me from everything natural at that time; home, family, friends, financial security, and told me to walk by faith. I've only known commissions, particularly since that time, (even though I was commissioned before then also). SO for me speaking a word of faith for another has been very specific, knowing God has had me involved with different ones since then.

As a 'rule' I do not come to a word of faith for another with anyone else beside God and me. There are exception when others are speaking a word of faith and they have ask me to stand with 'them' (and I do); but that has more to do with them speaking a word for someone they know to speak for; than when I am speaking on behalf of another.

Sometimes that word of faith for another that I've spoken, becomes public information, because I tell it to different ones who make it public; but a rule it is a very private matter with me, and I only share it among those who believe as I do. In other words I don't throw my pearls before the swine least they come back a lacerate me. But I do find, once I have come to a knowing word of faith to speak; particularly where another is in great need of God's intervention; once I have spoken this is what God is going to do; I seek out immediately after speaking that word someone of like faith to share with; but only if I know they are safe in a faith position also. Faith is the real thing! Because usually the 'word of faith' you are speaking is so ridicules to the circumstances that no one, but another safe person of faith would believe with you anyway. And usually the person you are speaking the word for knows nothing of it at the time, either. Sometimes it is a period of time before you even know what word to speak; God usually has to tell me what it is that I desire for that person. I'm totally dependent on Him, but once I know what it is I am to say! Hell or high water can't stop me!... See more

As to Norman and Rees; I would assume, from what Norman shared with me, he picked up 'speaking a word" from Rees as he said great light flowed from Rees as they walked together when meeting; but I would also assume if the two of them were being touched by a particular person in whom they both were moved by God to come to the same word of faith; they would agree together, and SAY that word.

I can identify with what you speak of as a 'break-though' pertaining to speaking a word of faith. And if it's made public beyond one or two knowing of it; you are publicly being watched to see God bring it to pass. I don't have to 'watch'; I know it's done; though if a time element is involved; I am seeing it come to pass as well.
Chris Welch That's terriffic and it is making me think about how it works for me. Actually I do have 2 walks, or one walk manifested in 2 ways. The church setting I have described is a bit different to the daily walk, as the practice of gathering together as a Body is a bit different from working singly or as Christine and I. Most of the daily challenges are ... See moremeeting bills when I may or may not have any work booked. I go through something like a labour for the necessary things to be paid on time. I guess most of us are doing this. You kind of carry it in your insides but all the time knowing the One who is All-Sufficient is fused as me. To be frank, and it drives Christine up the wall sometimes, I am listening on my insides to "what is next"...and sometimes it is a particular thing I feel to share on the blog, something like a bomb waiting to explode. If I get this right, and it is really what Jesus is doing next, quite often we will get a random piano sale....or someone will phone in asking for a long tuning and repair or something. Sometimes it feels like an alternative way of marketing. But as I say, it doesn't always go down well with Christine. And sometimes she is right. other times we will feel something random and identical from the time we get up. We're not primarily evangelists, but on the day of the seabaptism when Yvette was lined up...both of us felt strongly that we had to nail Gerald, her husband. If we were frequent nailers...this would sound manipulative...but up til now we've never had another time like this. Gerald is so laid back as a character, he'd probably only just think about getting saved as the flames of hell were licking around him. So actually, he did make a decision for Christ that day and if anybody has seen the video....everyone who was there kind of felt Gerald looked about 10 years younger when he came out of the water. http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2008/11/time-for-testimony.html
Yesterday at 19:30 ·
Chris Welch I don't know if that is the main difference from your cases Nancy, when to prevent laceration you sometimes keep stumm. In a safe church used to the Presence of Christ and prophetic declarations of faith you seem to be able to get away with more.
We had a virtually paralysed girl that all the other house churches had sort of given up on in the 70s... See more. Ian McCulloch was up for the challenge so she came to live in the Christian Community house in Emsworth. She lived at the top of the house in total darkness...she was allergic to light and going up there to pray with her was like dining with demons. For months it was like the devil was just sneering at all of us, the main pastor included. But as clear as anything on two separate occasions in the praise and worship God used me to declare victory in no uncertain terms. But the months dragged on after this.I was about 22, and i felt a small version of what Rees Howells did making the declaration about Hitler.
If you look on my friends list you will see Norita Roberts, an Argentinian who God raised up at this point to do a "Gerald" with this girl. He specifically commissioned her to get up at 5 every morning and stand in for this girl until she was totally free. Step by step. Feeding in Word. Some Holy Spirit bullying! Gradually this girl, who had a doctor's record sheet like a phone directory, was totally set free....at least there was some back pain remaining I think. But she has a totally new life, married and living in Barcelona. And, for all you who have read Mark Stibbe's testimony....you know what really broke the whole deal. The revelation of God the Father's personal love for the girl. All her Christian life she was convinced she wasn't loved. And God's love suddenly broke through!!!! This story shows the Body of Christ moving corporately, each part making a part of the breakthrough jigsaw for this girl. Saints , it's time we had more Bible Houses...but this time 3rd Level ones!!!!
Yesterday at 19:43 ·

What a loada bull....etin

A very different sort of response to Pagan Christianity, the book by Frank Viola.


Dear George –

I read, with much dismay, your recent book entitled “Pagan Christianity?” that you co-authored with Frank Viola (a leader in the house church movement).

Bro. George, you have every right to criticize church buildings, and altar calls, sermons, and even pastors (or the need for them). In my opinion you can even go after (as you’ve done in this book) clothing, worship and worship teams, youth pastors and music directors. I don’t really mind so much your harsh criticism of tithing and giving, and water baptism and the Lord supper, and I will even agree with your take on seminarian training (what good is that after all?) and counselors (never had much use for them myself).

But sir, you crossed the line when you attacked those of us who feel that the weekly bulletins are a vital and necessary part of our Sunday worship experience, and I must protest in the strongest of terms to you calling us out like you’ve done.

I represent a church that uses bulletins and we have been doing so for many decades now!! We feel very strongly that true ‘bulletinites” like ourselves have been indeed called out from the rest of the world systems and we will hold the line on our convictions until the Lord returns for us one day!


I am proud to state here and now that we have not compromised our position concerning the bulletin and we proudly produceour bulletins the old fashioned way – the mimeograph machine. Just the lingering smell of the “special ink” filling our place of worship -well, it just has a way of “bringing us in” if you know what I mean.

I will admit there have been certain folks several years ago that split off from us and started a new church down the street (2ndBulletin Church of the Xerox) who determined to compromise and dabble in color bulletins – but we continue to hold fast to the true blue/white that can only come from a genuine mimeograph machine. Additionally, I am ashamed to say that as the world has moved on,there is also a group out there - the Reformist – that have abandoned the bulletin altogether in favor of that new medium called the”web-site.” We try to avoid them as much as possible – and truth be told, we’re not sure that we will ever even run into them in heaven (if you get my drift).

George, again, I must protest the blatant slam on our worship experience and I would press you as much as possible that you repent of this rash approach of yours and recant your position about bulletins. Surely with everything else that you’ve condemned and criticized in this book, as well as in your all time best seller -”Revolution,” you must know by now that the whole church of Jesus Christ world-wide is focused on function and format over substance. After all, isn’t that why you write such tomes?

George, thank you for taking the time to read this letter from a die-hard bulletinite. We will continue to pray for you that you see the light and return to the fold(ed).

Your friend
Jerry David

So if Christ has done it all - what, to quote Watchman Nee , shall this man do?

We're having a crucial discussion on Facebook along the lines of this post's title.
Ern Baxter discussed similar things, but more in terms of the common belief that as Jesus is coming back, we surely, just tell who we can about Jesus, and apart from that sort of kick around watching things get worse and worse waiting for our bus trip home.
I always remember his phrase in Thy Kingdom Come Kansas City 1975...
This has paralyzed the church for centuries!!!!

As you read this discussion....what do you think? If you read Peter Stott's message on Psalm 24 you can see he has very clear ideas about what we are doing on earth.

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Wessel Wessels (Rom 8:29) God knew what he was doing from the very beginning. He decided from the outset to shape the lives of those who love him along the same lines as the life of his Son. The Son stands first in the line of humanity he restored. We see the original and intended shape of our lives there in him.(Heb 1:3a)This Son pe...rfectly mirrors God, and is stamped with God's nature. He holds everything together by what he says-See more
Tues at 07:08 · Comment ·UnlikeLikeYou, Andrea Lynn, John Madden, Mankwe Clement Phukubje and 12 others like this.
Chris Welch What I see now is life is a series of doors in exactly the same way as it was for Jesus. If we walk in Him, we take these doors that lead onto the sort of life He lived. Without Him in our life we routinely miss these doors, and then get very disappointed with life, because we think....is this all there is? It isn't all there is....we just missed all the clues by living in our delusive sense of selfhood, and not recognizing Him in us.
Andre Oosthuizen Good thinking Chris.
Tues at 09:19Wessel Wessels They call it revelation knowledge, it is in this way that God reveals Himself to us in many ways, Amen my Brothers!!!
Tues at 09:22Mike Daniel Chris - I DO like your illustration, while at the same time rejoicing that in God's perfect love and sovereign foreknowledge, He uses both the doors I take AND the ones I miss to bring me into greater intimacy & dependence with Himself. The difference is just that the door I take is in deliberate cooperation and participation with His plan & ...
See more
indwelling life, whereas the one I miss is His plan at work FOR me, but sadly WITHOUT my participating (yet) with Him.

So, where Jesus' participation (& therefore experience of joy, rest, peace, sufficiency, security, signifance, acceptance, etc.) was total, my participation (& therefore EXPERIENCE of each of these) is limited by walking in the flesh instead of abiding in Christ.
Tues at 17:24 via Email reply

Chris Welch yup Mike...that's a good summation of our record on the subject:The Bible. Kadesh Barnea was very serious for the lost generation though....although in the long plan of things...it only held things up. Whenever we live as Christ as me though...it's not simply a right choice , it seems to unlock things in another dimension entirely. And when we ... See moreutterly utterly fail like David in the Bathsheba episode...if we're ruthlessly honest about the whole thing, allowing those figleaves to be pulled right away....then, again God seems to snatch us up again into this"other dimension". In David's case he unlocked levels of worship that we're still trying to catch up with thousands of years later in the whole church. So in His grace it is a win win situation, though devastating to our pride.
Mike Daniel That's interesting, Chris. I disagree on a certain issue, though. David certainly did nit unlock levels of worship that we are in any way constrained from at any time. Nor are we pursuing a different dimension or reality in our walk or relationship with. I read Eph. 1 as saying we already have every blessing in Christ. I read Peter's words about His divine power having already given us everything necessary for life and godliness. My response then is not to achieve a new level of anything, but walk in the fullness of what is ALWAYS available to me in Christ.

ridiculously graced...
-mike.
http://StoneLife.org... See more

(Sorry for typos - Sent from my iPhone

Wessel Wessels Amen Mike we live in the reality of an accomplished work, we entered God's rest and we also now rest from all our own efforts and attempts to try and please an already pleased God. God is not resting because He is tired no but He is resting in the perfection of an already accomplished work in Christ, therefore this mystery which was hidden for ages... See more and generations but now revealed namely Christ Jesus in us, is the only hope of realizing the Glory or "DOXA" of God's original foreknowledge which was a mystery to man due to the fall and the ignorance that followed it, but now we have the mind of Christ so that we may know what the riches are of what God already bestowed upon us in Christ Jesus, now we only need to come to the knowledge of a fullness of what already is ours, so God is calling man all over to repent from their own way of thinking and exchange their ignorance for the truth which is God's way of thinking, and you will realize then that this is something which we as man had nothing to do with, it was all God's idea from the beginning and therefore there is nothing that we can add to perfection, it is an acceptance of a death that we as man died with Christ 2000yrs ago and were co raised into a new life with Christ therefore our very lives are now hidden in Christ in God, we are in agreement with God, that the testimony which He testified about His Son is the truth and that He gave us eternal life and this eternal life is in His Son, which is now the very essence of our lives...There is only one door and that door is Jesus Christ Himself and no one goes to the Father but through the one door which is Jesus, for He said I am the vine and you are the branches, he that abides in me will bare much fruit for without Him we can do nothing, the Adamic man expired, man died to an old inferior might be perhaps right kind of life, we are the new generation that God had in mind and came and planted Himself therefore we are His offsprings, God's peculiar people, kings, priests and ministers of the reconciliation and revealers of the mysteries of God, we are the new creation man that's got only one mission and one only and that is to do the will of the Father through Christ who is our life. He is the fountain of Life and in His light we see the Light.
Tues at 20:35

Chris Welch For 1800 years the gospel lived side by side with slavery in the Earth unchecked. From the time of the Cross the truth was out there! We are all One in the New Adam. There is no place for Mike Daniel to be my slave! But it wasn't until this truth was unlocked by the intercessory action of John Newton and William Wilberforce, that the whole thing ... See morestarted to fall like a pack of dominoes, first here, then the States. That is the spirit in which I am speaking. You are speaking eternal truths, I am speaking of historical invasions of God's realms into ours. You are speaking of the train leaving at the main station, I am speaking of the trains arriving on Platform 4. And unless you continually walk with the glory shining out of your body, I would suggest a moment like the Transfiguration was a time when an earthly carpenter was manifesting a different dimension.
"David certainly did nit unlock levels of worship that we are in any way constrained from at any time" He certainly did and no we're not constrained by them....because they were so huge...we seem to have a hard time catching up...even in our charismatic times. It is plain in Acts about David being a type for us. But it is ofcourse understood when Paul later speaks of Abraham and David as types, they are but shadows of the greater who is Christ.
Guys, I am seriously disturbed that I even have to write this.It's like the evident grace revelation you have needs a bit more digestion.
Mike Daniel Oh, my friend. What a great heart you have! But David and John Newton had no more to do with those revelations of our flesh and God's glory than Peter caused the transfiguration! No, just like on that mountainside, God reveals His grace - in direct conflict with our flesh - according to His good pleasure, not our unlocking, uncovering, undoing, ... See moreor revamping in any way. And as for the trains - His finished work has brought them all back home - their is no where left for them to go. All that remains is for us to allow Him to show us (not gain for ourselves) all the ramifications of being safe in the terminal of His finished work! Sadly, our charismatic days speak more to our desiring edification than glory by grace, but that is another debate for another day. His glory has not not been diminished by our flesh nor is it revealed by our efforts, but all is working solely by His perfect timing and sovereign will (Eph. 1) that by His unfolding grace to us, He would be glorified through us. The New Covenant Economy is one of walking in what we already have and what He's already done - all His requirements met; all His rewards delivered - in the Person of Christ.

You are loved!

Wed at 15:05

Chris Welch Not as "separate beings" no....it was your Saviour and mine living directly through them to turn these historic keys..."making up what is lacking in His afflictions". This is how church works.
Wed at 16:00 ·

Mike Daniel Yes - we must be available for His revelation and to participate in what He's doing, but the more we live out of and teach a paradigm of what we must do to experience what God has, the more we lead in performance and merit. As long as we are trying to turn the keys, we will continue to experience being on the wrong side of the door. In Christ, all things have ALREADY been opened - we must walk then in faith by grace alone.
Wed at 16:05Mike Daniel ...and Church "works" by an infinite God revealing Himself through the plurality of finite beings who walk in availability by the sufficient grace of His finished work.
Wed at 16:06Chris Welch "As long as we are trying to turn the keys, we will continue to experience being on the wrong side of the door. In Christ, all things have ALREADY been opened - we must walk then in faith by grace alone."
It is important to see when Jesus said to Peter, after His bold confession, "I give you the Keys of the Kingdom." that when Peter turned the ... See morekeys to let 3000 into the Kingdom for the first time, it was not an add-on to his salvation.He was not the wrong side of the door.He was not "trying" anything, he had been given this specific task to do. It was complete grace, and he knew it....because if anyone shouldn't be turning those keys it was Peter.
Was he adding to Christ's work? Nope. Was he declaring Christ's completed work. Yup. Was Wilberforce taking away from Christ's declaration of total freedom by being used to stop slavery? Nope. If Peter hadn't turned those keys would 3,000 have been saved? Probably some would....but maybe the majority wouldn't. Does this make Christ's total complete work invalid just because He required Peter to use the keys?
Who is the One who has unlocked all obstacles for all time?Jesus. Who is it who has to obey Christ to see the finished work manifest? We do. Who is we? We, as struggling Christians trying to add to Christ's work? Nope. Christ's work is already complete in heaven? Who has to enforce this victory on earth according to Revelation 12? We do...by the Blood of the Lamb,by the word of our testimony and by laying down our lives even unto death. Does this buy us salvation. Nope. Who is we? Independent selves, born again yet struggling to do the works of heaven?Nope. People who are dead. Yes. People who now live by the faith of the Son of God, by the Christ who lives within them. Who is doing the work? Difficult to tell. When you eat a Hershey bar, can you separate out the Hershey bar from your innards? Nope. You and the Hershey bar are one.

Wed at 20:15 ·

Chris Welch Christ suddenly angered a whole host of grace message people who'd loved it all until then. He said "Unless you eat Me and drink My blood you will have no life in you?" He was talking fusion. Loads left that day. After fusion, like the Hershey bar it's difficult to tell anymore between the believer on earth and the Christ He has just noshed. There ... See moreis no dividing line. What disturbs me about you feeling you have had to write and "put me right"....is that you obviously see a dividng line. Focussing on Christ in the heavens is great for starters. But not for opening doors here on earth. For that you need to know within yourself that you are dead. That you are fused. If you are still seeing dividing lines, you will not be turning any keys, but it will be given to the next generation who Jesus has just had for His lunch!
Wed at 20:23 ·

Mike Daniel Chris, clearly I've offended you, and I am really sorry, Brother. I love your passion for God and His word, and realize that you stand wholly and irrevocably uncondemnable before Him, so we are definitely on the same side of faith. I do not want to divide.

I do disagree with some critical points in what you've shared, but have no need or desire to "put you right" but only to edify and encourage in the Truth as I have been sharpened so many times. If you (or anyone reading all this!) would like to see a fuller response I'd be happy to send a direct message to you with some of those points (having written it out, I've thought better of posting it here!) :)

You are right about one thing (more than one, actually) - I will NOT be turning any keys ...but resting on His finished work, fixing my eyes upon the Finisher of my faith, and focusing my heart and mind where I am seated in Him with God.... See more

Thanks for sharing your heart authentically with me, Brother!

ridicuslously graced...
-mike.
Wed at 22:25

Mike Daniel Bunch of folks have asked that I post those "last thoughts", including Chris, so, reluctantly...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chris - I'm very sorry that I've come across as having to "put you right" by anything I've written. I praise God that you, having put your faith in Christ, are completely and irrevocably uncondemnable (Rom. 8:1), and I don't mean to speak any critical word of judgment or condemnation. My hope is only to sharpen a brother even as I am so often sharpened - as we are mutually edified by the Truth.

I don't want to play tug-a-war over any issue with a brother, but want to agree with you on a couple of points and ask a couple of questions. First - love that you are saying you're not adding to Christ's work. Also - love that you're using Scripture for doctrinal defense. I especially love your citing of Christ's blood and flesh. I do disagree with a few issues as you've described them, but I may misunderstand your points, and certainly don't want to get into a semantic debate if that's all it is.... See more

Christ's flesh and blood seems to me to speak clearly of His provision - having already provided all things for life and for godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). However, I definitely agree we have an inseparable union with Christ. We must receive His provision to have life, but that is a receiving act, not an achieving act. We don't do anything to receive it, but acknowledge it by faith - it's a choice, not a behavior. Jesus himself said the only work of God we must do is "believe upon the One whom He's sent."

I don't see the correlation between the keys Christ promised Peter and what happened at Pentecost. Clearly, Jesus DID intend to illustrate something in "giving keys" but I believe this to be the principle of Christ's identity and Peter's co-identification based on His understanding of who Jesus is. This principle - upon which Christ will build His Church (again, jesus doing the building) - is I believe the crux of all our entry into heaven, namely, knowing Jesus as God's Son and being identified by our relationship with Him as a recipient of grace. I don't see any evidence (but I'm open) to the keys having anything to do with Peter's behavior then or later, and this seems to contradict some of Peter's own statements in his letters.

One statement concerns me greatly: "Focussing on Christ in the heavens is great for starters. But not for opening doors here on earth." This seems dangerous to me - I would only ask that you prayerfully consider the implications of this statement. Hebrews says, "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the Author AND Finisher of our faith..." He initiated and will finish all things He has designed for us. Colossians 3 directs our focus again, "Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God" Praise God I died! Again - have to agree with you there! Now my life is in Christ alone. All of His glory through His Church will be by His grace to us for His glory through us.

Do we need greater revelation? YES! ...to understand all we ALREADY have in Christ's finished work. Paul wanted to know Christ more (Phil 3), and for us to know His love more (Rom. 8), and for His Church to have revelation of what is ours from Him (Eph 1). But it is all revelation of His finished work, not our unlocking new works or blessings He has withheld to date.

I debated with myself about sharing so much - concerned that it undermines my desire not to quarrel with you. I find a greater burden though in my heart - that to share love is often to share truth, especially with someone with such passion and desire for God. Please forgive me if I've overstepped your desire for clarifying conversation.
Yesterday at 22:31
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Chris Welch today
Brilliant reply.And so loving.We will just have to draw a line on Peter I guess. His was a unique gift from Christ never ever to be repeated. He got to announce that the Kingdom was now open for the first time to men. Nobody can ever be "the first" again. I would urge everyone including me to prayerfully consider the steps in Peter's life. Things like how God honours boldness and revelation and confession. God sorts out our inner stuff later. And boy, was it sorted! So here was a man brought to the right place and the right time in Acts 2 in much fear and trepidation, yet at the same time a kind of pure boldness in the Spirit. This whole cycle of events is worth taking deep into our beings.
You are right to point out that we should ALWAYS be fixing our eyes on the things above. I am writing a kind of shorthand there which can be misconstrued as....done that let's move on to works now.
No, it seems to work like this. In Ephesians we see a progression. As believers in God's school as opposed to the religious systems of men we spend at least 2 chapters or a third of our Christian experience doing NOTHING but focussing on Christ and our new position in Him. This is comparable with Romans Ch3-6. It seems we do nothing else and as believers we get a lot of flack for it. "You're NOT doing anything!!!" people cry. But because Christianity is an inward seeing, layer upon layer, like French polish...and NOT a left-brain seminary course....God has us in this bit for as long as He feels is necessary...THEN while living in Ephesians 1-2, and Romans 3-6, on our insides, the next phase is to get our believing working in 3D laboratories called family, work and friends...believers and unbelievers...This is Ephesians 3,4 and 5.
But nowhere have we moved outside of our continuous inward seeing of Ephesians 1 and 2 and Romans 3 to 6.
On Facebook we have to use shorthand...but the casualty is clarity. So naturally you thought I was moving on from ever looking at Jesus.
What happens after this is we begin to see Jesus clearer and clearer in absolutely everything that is going on. We begin to see what Jesus meant by "seeing what the Father was doing"...only for us it is seeing what Jesus is doing.

In terms of meetings, this is the key for moving in miracles. Jesus used to say..."Aaaah...I see the Presence of God is here for healing...who wants to be healed?" The phrase that is in the Bible is when Jesus saw that God was present to heal.
These Ephesians and Romans processes are outlined in the articles Merrill Thompson and Nancy Gilmore are sending out. The whole book of Norman Grubb’s entitled “Yes I am” is linked to also on my blog for download. If that’s too long, track down Romans 6-8 by Norman Grubb. It’s the same subject but more potted. More about keys and how the earth is given to the sons of men to either bind up or unlock is here in Peter Stott's series on psalm24.
http://080808onnowto.blogspot.com/2009/02/lift-up-your-heads-o-ye-gates.html

Having driven Ben to school I feel to commend you on stressing the finished work of Christ. The reason Rob Rufus is having to spend about 5 years teaching nothing but grace in an alien law-filled environment of Hong Kong is entirely correct in the Spirit.


Churches all over America are run by seminary trained individuals that have gone through a left-brain training mill of knowledge and they wonder why after spending 2 weeks a year teaching a left-brain version of grace, and 50 weeks on its outworking....why their Christians never grow.
We only grow by revelation. They themselves were never told it was an inward religion. The left-brain does not handle grace as a subject too easily, any more than it understands Christ in us the hope of glory and questions of love and being loved. The left-brain was just not equipped to do that.
Christianity in this way is condemned to failure in the west. The whole way it is run is doomed from the start. Praise God for people like you being raised up.