I
made a few notes from a book on 2 Thes a few years ago. Below I
expanded these notes (can't remember the book, but the thoughts have
been developing and I thought its time to share some of them)
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 (New King James Version)
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation
those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in
flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on
those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall
be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord
and from the glory of His power,
What does 'eternal destruction' mean in this context?
Paul, speaking to believers who are facing persecution, assures them
that God would vindicate them, for "... it is a righteous thing with God
to repay with tribulation those who trouble you" When "the Lord Jesus
is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire", they
will receive a just penalty, namely "eternal destruction".
But does this, as some translations imply, mean an eternal seperation from the presence of God?
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from
the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power(NIV) Eternal exile from the presence of the Master and his splendid power is their sentence.(MSG)
The Greek, just like the English word 'from' can sometimes mean 'away
from' and other times simply refer to the source as in 'proceeding
from'. So for instance we have Is 2:10: Enter into the rock, and hide in
the dust, From the terror of the LORD. And Rev 6:16: and said to the
mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who
sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! In both these texts
the verb 'to hide' determines the correct translation of 'from'. But in 2
Thes 1:9 we don't find any such verb that would indicate that 'from'
means 'away from' When Paul speaks about the 'presence of the Lord' in
verse 9 he obviously has in mind the Lord's appearance 'in flaming fire'
as described in verse 8. So when he speaks about destruction, it does
not mean destruction away from the flaming fire, but destruction that
proceeds from the flaming fire.
Verse 2 "grace to you and peace
from God the Father" means the peace that proceeds from the Father, not
peace away from the Father! The presence of the Lord is the flaming
fire, which is the source of and brings about this destruction.
Destruction away from the flaming fire - the presence of the Lord -
makes no sense. Reading into this text the idea of eternal separation
from the presence of the Lord, is reading into it something that is
simply not there.
So what does this eternal destruction mean?
Let me focus first on the word 'eternal, although the word 'punishment'
will also be explored. The same word 'eternal' is used a number of times
in relation to punishment ... eternal punishment. The greek scholar and
theologian, William Barclay says: 'in all Greek literature kolasis
(punish) is never used of anything but remedial punishment'. This word
originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better.
According to Barclay therefore 'eternal punishment' is literally that
kind of punishment which only the eternal God can give. Being remedial,
the punishment is intended as a means of correction, a means to the end
of eternal life; and so an eternal means of correction. It is eternal in
the sense that its source is the eternal God and in the sense that its
corrective affects lasts forever.
Let's look at the word
'destruction'. Paul uses the same word 'destruction' in 1 Cor 5:5:
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his
spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Interestingly he does
not mean the total annihilation of this individual, but rather
destruction and salvation are presented as two sides of the same coin!
A few observations regarding this text, The sin with which Paul is so
disgusted is 'of the kind that is not even found among pagans' (5:1) The
punishment he prescribes has a real retributive flavour: 'he who has
committed this act must be removed from among you'. Paul then continues
to pronounce judgement on this individual and orders the Corinthians to
hand him over to Satan! Given the harsh tone of Paul's remarks - as
harsh as anything we read in 2 Thes - we would never have thought that
Paul intended this for the man's own good ... had he not explicitly said
so.
In Paul's thought every 'vessel of mercy' was at once
stage a 'vessel of wrath' and it is precisely in the destruction of the
vessel of wrath that the vessel of mercy is manifested. Wow I'm getting
excited - just think about it - Paul himself was guilty of the same sin
described in 2 Thes - persecuting the believers - over which he
pronounces such a strong sentence. Was the light of God's presence not
the flaming fire that eternally destroyed Saul ... and birthed Paul!
Extract from 'He comes like lightning': (http://hearhim.net/wordpress/2011/12/01/he-comes-like-swift-lightning-to-you/)
Here's a man, breathing threats and murder; a man who was gratified by
witnessing the brutal and violent death of Stephen (Acts 8:1), on his
way to search out more people to persecute. He is not just biased
against these people, he zealously pursues them to destroy them.
What kind of revelation, what kind of understanding, can transform this
man, to so love and so care for the very people he hates, that he will
lay down his live for them?
Jesus doesn't come to argue with
you, to gently adjust your thinking, to comment on your live and hope
that you will take some of His comments to heart. He comes like
lightning. He wants to strike a death blow to your carnal, natural
mindset. He comes to reveal how blind and deaf all your thoughts have
been in comparison to what He knows.
It is so insightfully said
in verse 8: ... when his eyes were opened he saw no one. Everything
Saul knew about man was erased in this one strike of lightning! Later
Paul writes: ... from now on I cannot look at any man from a human point
of view. (2 Cor 5:16)
The coming of Jesus Christ, the
revelation of Jesus Christ to Paul, physically blinded him for three
days, but it forever changed the way he saw every person.
Andre, as you know,I've come
from things at an oblique angle to you...but they marry right here. I
come from the direct experiences of Ed Miller triggering very real
national and local revivals and the one he taught who broadened the
"corporate experience of Body Living"
Jorge Pradas. Both had an understanding of taking a "meeting" by the
scruff of the neck THROUGH the flaming swords that GUARD the Tree of
Life. And both regarded meetings totally transformatively in the manner
of the MIRROR showing Jesus Christ in our own person.They would have
loved Francois' translation. In fact they would have used it in what I
am going to say next.
You
can read the whole story of Ed in Argentina in his books Google
R.Edward Miller. As a pentecostal missionary he was getting nowhere in
Argentina. (In my terms he was a 2ndleveller getting frustrated) So, a
brave move in those days, he told God he
wasn't going to do another thing until God did something. So he did
nothing apart from seek God. Nothing. Then after ages doing that and
nothing outwardly happening he requested a sign whether he should
continue. One convert by Friday. At 11.55pm someone came to his door and
asked to know the Lord! So he continued. The rest is in the book. How
the Holy Spirit came in like a wind to their room where they were
praying etc. What isn't in the books is Ed's ministry and Jorge Pradas
who he taught...
You
see Ed didn't call it the third level....he probably called it the
Throne Room, or the glory or something...but both of them sought to run
their meetings there. So this is what happens when the Holy Spirit runs
meetings. Obviously He never does
anything twice because He is an economist! He always move to purpose.
But roughly speaking His meetings run in an arc like the Lord's prayer.
They begin exulting the Lord, then there's a time "like the flaming
swords", like " eternal judgment". It's the time, maybe on your face,
standing, sitting, whatever...when God shows you Jesus in the Mirror.
Jorge Pradas's song (one of 1000 in Spanish) was "IN YOUR IMAGE I
AWAKEN". The Holy Spirit takes you inside to show you Jesus, but "like
lightning" He reveals the stuff on our insides that is NOT AUTHENTIC TO
US...and in that instant He rips it out. Now sometimes its gentle.
Sometimes it lasts longer than a meeting. Some of these things are so
core to us, it feels like our insides are busting. The Old Testament
describes it as a woman in labour. But what is coming through, is the
AUTHENTIC, without any of the other things attached anymore. Then like
the last bit of the Lord's Prayer (see my blog post the Apocalypse of
Chrust, the Unveiling of Christ) the whole Body goes into action
again...but this time Without reference to sin.(Understand me
please..the Holy Spirit does not want that we go into meetings sin
conscious...but your average "young believer" does....but all that is
blown away...and what we experience is an incredible release...like the
final declaration "Yours is the Power and the Kingdom forever and ever".
Another thing it's like is the huge power invested in the final Ascents
Psalm 134, when standing by night...the people Cry...We BLESS YOU OUT
OF ZION.... feel that....another powerful wave is sent round the earth
to accomplish another set of God's purposes. Well that's meetings..
Oh...just
to say...in a genuine 3rd level meeting the old Catholic idea of the
homily or sermon which Frank Viola describes in Pagan Christianity, is
blown out the window. Now it's not that you or Francois and others
having a gift of utterance dont share.
We know Paul shared so long and powerfully, a little boy fell out of a
window. But the whole sharing thing is in the context of what the Holy
Spirit is doing amongst us today. People who preach have to be
completely re-programmed by the Spirit in the 3rd level.Nothing is the
same. For a start, every member knows they are Christ in their form, and
at any moment the Holy Spirit may be bringing forth something in the
Body....anyhow that's a snippet...this is what happened next.
30 minutes ago ·
Chris WelchThat
was meetings. But God birthed this vision through Ed and Jorge of Casa
Biblicas, or Bible Houses. This was a prototype of the 3rd level church.
A return to how it was for the disciples with Jesus. Where God in and
through His Body, all day long, all week long, all year long was doing
the stuff he was doing in 3rd level meetings, but in Life as we lived
together
Similar
to YWAM, but God showed us at that time He wanted us to learn a new
way...so we did very little evangelism, we just sought God. Guess He
knew if we did evangelise we'd slip back into the 4 spiritual
laws...rather than learning the new way
which is more like John4 at the well....anyhow I digress. See, we didn't
have the articul;ation we have now online, but we had the Spirit and
this is what it looked like. God sovereignly spoke through prophets
(Jean Darnall and later Harry Greenwood) that He was going to have a
church at Emsworth whereyoung people, with teachable hearts, who would
be brought in and then sent all over the world. Like nearly all
prophecies, the opposite happened. There was scarce a young person on
the horizon for 5 years. Then all of a sudden, from Argentina, Spain,
France and England, me sovereignly told to down tools immediately at
Exeter university, Marcus Roberts told to come across from Haywards
Heath where he was a teacher. And many others older converged too. In
fact around Waterlooville other Christians were saying it's a
cult...they believe Jesus is going to come back in Emsworth!..... Well
He did come but not as anyone thought.
So,
30 of us in a single house (3 storey Swiss style ...then later moved to
Winsley, a small mansion. Now the "eternal/judgment" grace process
never happened simultaneously with all 30...phew....praise God...About 3
or 4 would be really going through
stuff at any one time and it was interesting how supernaturally everyone
else would be carrying them until it was over. Some couldn't take it
and left. I now know that the Holy Spirit is a gentleman, and He knows
how much we can take and when...and His grace never tires!!!!Though I
was a lot more "2nd level and disciple like in those days"...remember
how the disciples were in the gospels...always condemning people and
writing everyone off...you get the picture.
Here's
one story. Christian girl is cutting herself when she came into the
house. Her Christian Dad had sexually abused her.We watched as the Holy
Spirit (we didn't know details) stripped her right back inside her, then
rebuilt her totally from within out. He
used the scripture Psalm 45...."The King has desired your
beauty.....and with gold shall you be led before the King". Well, I tell
you, she then began singing songs of the Lord...like a flood. I've
probably not heard worship songs like it too may times since. Incredibly
beautiful. The ones we captured, we continued to sing here and in
Argentina and Spain. So in repeated temporary cycles the Body would use
the Body to bring people through. I have never seen so many people in
one place so radically transformed over such a short period a time.
That's why I have been so strong with the Zerubbabel crowd.
Now imagine
such a Holy Spirit process with an articulation as clear as yours and
Francois and some of the others on here. I tell you all, you simply have
no idea how fast 3rd level Holy Spirit churches work. We are all so
used to the traditions of men...people like Nancy Gilmore cannot even
imagine it here on this earth. But this is what I am saying. I've lived
the prototype. I was there. This stuff exists on planet earth. But it
has to be God-raised up. God prepared people. God processed Life
together...we even had our own God raised up industry....God processed
meetings....God financed....It makes the the whole of YWAM look like a
sausage making machine by comparison.
Facebook
snaffled all this, so I had to do the whole lot twice. Now i forgot to
mention another thing that dovetails in with what Andre just wrote about
Eternal Judgment. The Holy Spirit's idea of a local church(not the
human idea at all) is where He lifts from out of the Old Testament the
illustration of the city of refuge. The Body of Christ is a city of refuge.
See, if you've committed adultery or murder...or many other such
things....the natural order of things meant you would die! Or you spin
into operation at least a whole load of negatives. But instead of
judgment, a city of refuge was and is a place where God spins the
judgment around, and cuts into a whole cycle of events to begin a
totally new history! One example: My old pastor was just about to
get divorced before he got saved. Divorce ran like a curse through their
whole family. But part of the City of refuge experience for him at
Emsworth was HIS DAD AND MUM re-married and got baptised in the sea at
Emsworth. I tell you the Body of Christ is one crazy place!
about a minute ago ·
Chris WelchI should say this was after 20 years divorce! So both his marriage and his parent's marriage were saved.
Chris Welch I should say this was after 20 years divorce! So both his marriage and his parent's marriage were saved.
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