Jacob Song written by A.Christopher Welch (my official name)1989 and recorded in John Daniels Studio Farlington in 1991 as part of my double CD "Early Harvest"
Key to Lyrics : "angels/men with knives " amalgamates these sorts of scriptures
The Tree of Life guarded by cherubim with swords
Hebrews 4 : the Living and active Sword
The angel coming out against Moses who was not yet circumcised
Circumcision of the heart
The angel coming out against Joshua's presumption that he was in charge
And ofcourse Peniel, Genesis 32
- Paul Noble
Yes I think I'm going to contact Peter againPs we've just seen 3 local homeless people get saved and they are now coming to church. All we did was give them a christmas meal and show them some practical help - Friday
- Chris Welch
Paul let me be quite blunt. I appreciate you and Rohan may not quite believe the same as me...but I like you,Rohan and Derek because I see you as Melchizedek order people. The problem with where you are at is you still all see yourselves as individuals, all doing your bit. Rohan too. If left to his own devices he'll build the most perfect healing pyramid in his name in Leigh Park. Derek has been reigned in by the Spirit and now by faith continues the struggle for clarity of believing in Portsdown...but at least he's not seeking to build his own thing anymore.
I just see One Melchizedek Order...and I see places like Portsdown floating in and out of it like jetsam on the waves. They feel they have authority to blunder along, without Spirit order, without evangelistic gifting, without any sense of the urgency that comes when a Spirit congregation KNOWS it is celebrating the the Heavenly version of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Portdown meanders around...nobody calls it to attention...they do what they feel , when they feel like it, if they feel like it...but there is not that palpable feeling of anyone being LORD over them.
Like they'd better jolly well hear what God Almighty is saying or they'll have their lampstand removed.
Do you see what I mean? All four of us have gifting for them, but they refuse it. Derek's still chipping away. But they need to be called to account for the way they pick and choose who they want to hear. Because it is ALL Jesus. Paul Noble isn't less Jesus. Rohan isn't. Derek isn't and I am not. - Paul Noble
Chris let me be blunt too... I think YOU see yourself as an individual separated from the body of Christ also as none of this would matter to you! I see myself as part of the body in a local expression of church, a functioning member ( this is the problem with Facebook virtual christianity) where I'm rubbing up against other believers who like me still have some raw flesh! Yes God is working in this body but is it down to me - hardly in fact I've had very little to do with it I don't in any way control it even though I am recognised as an elder. Jacky Pullinger I think expressed the kind of Christianity you long for and actually I believe I agree with you actually but I just think you've got to get allot more real in terms of working this stuff out. To be honest I don't care what Portsdown do or whether its 3rd 4th or 5th level what counts is faith working through love else its just gnostic estoric nonsense!! - Today
- Paul Noble
So what am I afraid of exactly?
*********************
This conversation was originated by other factors. Paul Butcher, an elder at Havant Church said that the leadership there were keen to have another session at trying to iron out differences with me. So it's a bit like a conundrum framed within a conundrum. I felt the points raised in the conversation between Paul Noble and myself were too important to gloss over, and I would like others to learn here because this is a situation repeated in every town all over the earth.
What situation? Differences between believers. And more specifically differences between age groups and those who believe they are receiving fresh light from the Lord.
I will talk later about what Genesis 31 means to me and why what I felt was so strong it came out in a 1989 song, having been kicked out of Emsworth Church. But first I want to clarify the phrase
"The problem with where you are at is you still all see yourselves as individuals".....
Understanding it as Paul understood it, he was right to stress the need for a corporate manifestation of the Body of Christ. Just writing to each other on Facebook 1. doesn't answer the need for people to actually rub shoulders by living together and 2.No outsider is ever going to see anything, and be convinced by anything if it can't actually work in the real world. As Paul mentioned, they are seeing fruit from having made a Christmas lunch as a church for the building next door which is a kind of home for homeless and addicted people.
I was meaning something different by the phrase.
Paul Noble and Rohan Barton both felt misunderstood/unheard by Portsdown Church.
Rohan is a rough and ready evangelist like Elaine Waterfield and Jackie Pullinger and has little truck with much of the middleclass value systems of Havant Church.
Both Paul Noble and Derek Phillips have gained immensely from the teachings of Andrew Womack. Derek, for a time left the church out of sheer frustration, but now has returned and is chipping away sharing the revelation God has given him to whoever will listen. Paul and his wife went through incredible frustration when they were learning from Womack and other sources about the two subjects of healing and grace. I remember Paul spent literally months with his back against the wall in Havant meetings, because he was not allowed to share on these things.
About the time that Nancy Gilmore gave me a word from Ephesians "Awake O sleeper and christ shall give you light".....coupled with a strange experience of like a kick to the stomach when I read the back of a book recommended by Peter Stott (through Greg Haslam) which had none other than my second pastor on it from 1976....the very one who had described the Door Opening Word of Ern Baxter "Thy Kingdom Come" 1975 as something like "jolly enthusiatic preaching". This is a similar statement to someone describing the Raising of Lazarus by Jesus as a "Jolly fine entertainment trick."
The effect was a Spirit warning about the nature of Havant Church once you peer below the foliage.
So almost immediately I spoke direct to John Wilbraham, the main pastor and said if I heard him preaching any stuff that just wasn't in the Bible, i would make no bones about pointing it out, and probably in the service! This used to be common practice in England and is probably how the House of Commons got its present format of two bodies of people correcting each other in no uncertain terms.Looked at humanly, i guess this would seem quite disruptive, so the end product is I have spent the last 2 years or so being told not to speak openly in Havant meetings. They seem to allow a certain amount of the prophetic gift, but the whole thing is extremely vague, and after my last prophecy in November, it was clear I had no voice there, so decided to do the Biblical thing and withdraw.
I had my "fear of man" ripped off me at Emsworth, so previous to this I have openly expressed my views to the Havant leaders. Paul and Rohan have kind of slipped away quietly.
Now if you are just "seeing yourself as an individual" , you go off, pioneer a new church, again posting yourself or yourselves at the head of a new pyramid, which then takes the values you espouse and continues until the next "offspring" start questioning some of the things you are not saying, and if this is never resolved, they then slip away sideways, building yet another work.
Now, as St Paul says, each new work presents something of the gospel of Jesus to a new bunch, and in this way Jesus is further lifted up and glorified.....but as St Paul says....and as I am trying to say
THERE IS A BUT..............
- Nobody reaches full maturity.
- The landscape gets littered with more and more half-finished works of people. (Jesus warned about others laughing at our "half-built towers")
- The previous works NEVER get called to account, and get away with murder (sometimes literally)
"The problem with where you are at is you still all see yourselves as individuals".....
was that Paul was thinking of him just delivering a word to Peter Stott, off on his own, but I've seen them together. Peter is an amazing man of God with anointing similar to Mark Stibbe, and recently quite a similar kind of calling, but he can pull on the charm, and he does so with Paul, while not listening to a Word he or any of us is saying. And time is running out for Havant.
I don't have "an individual eye". I'm looking at the Melchizedek Order. I'm seeing the sort of Word that Elaine Waterfield, Rohan barton , Derek Phillips, myself and Paul Noble are being used to bring, and watching how not one thing is received. Well God doesn't speak forever.
The issue for me is not WHO gets to speak what
The issue for me is to see in the Spirit where a church is at then feed in that which is lacking as I best can hear the Spirit....or best can hear the Spirit through other church members.
The average local church at present does not receive from all its members. The average local church is immature and behaves in the fragmented way described in 1 Corinthians 12. If there is a full 12 tribes body of truth to be had......or 7 spirits of God.....
your average church probably functions on a maximum of 4 tribes worth....
Here for example are things you will never hear in Havant Church:
- There's no sense of immediacy, of instancy in taking hold of the word. The Israelites fled Israel so quickly they weren't even allowed to leaven their bread for the journey. We too celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. One meaning is that we respond immediately by faith. Another meaning is that we hear by the Spirit and obey without having to understand it all. Understanding is like leaven. Understanding can be good, but often our understanding waters down the Spirit revelation to a point where we don't feel we need the Spirit at all. This is a total lie...because only the Spirit Word is real seed, and has life in itself to bring forth life.
- Some evangelists have managed to survive Havant's more or less anti-evangelistic nature, but most have long since left or been squeezed out
- Sons of Issachar....or Barry Smith/Grant Jeffrey types don't get a hearing. Havant have no idea how close we are to world government
- Virtually none of the genuinely God given revelation that we now consider commonplace here on blogs and the internet has filtered through to Havant.
One of the main belief systems that change in the third level is to see "everything in God"....
Even the angel coming out to greet Moses....you remember, when Zipporah his wife screams
"Moses.....you are a man of blood to me.....Get yourself circumcised pretty darned quick!!!!"
Good ,bad, indifferent.....Matthew 5 makes it clear that we have an inverse Kingdom. Whhat has the "appearance of bad" this side of the universe....IS GENUINELY WORKING SOMETHING OUT IN THE KINGDOM OF LIGHT....even if it is just the groanings of the woman...the earth....the whole of mankind....for this new creation to birth.
This is the time of the NEW BREED.
The THIRD LEVEL OF REVELATION
which isn't as Paul Noble says...to be gnostic esoteric nonsense
BUT IS the heartcry of millennia for the Ancient Doors of Psalm 24 to be lifted for the Eternal Kingdom to make His manifest entrance....and FIRST in the reversal of the curse of Genesis 3 and in a race of manifesting sons.
Again , why is Jacob significant.
Jacob is the third Lifetime of God revelation....in the threefold package that was Abraham , Isaac and Jacob.
BUT WHO IS IT WHO GOT THE NAME CHANGE? Was it the Abrahamic revelation of faith. Nope.
Was it the Isaac revelation of wells of Water like wells of the Spirit, the promises of God by faith?
Nope
It was Jacob, the deceiver....yet the one who pressed through to the end.....SEEKING THE VERY FACE OF GOD HIMSELF
This is the generation of those who seek Him,
Who seek Your face—even Jacob.Psalm 24:6
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