A very interesting and thought provoking letter from David Weber:
I know that it's taught in Christendom that there can be no full overcoming of the fallen nature of man "this side of heaven," but this is not what the scriptures say. Jesus Himself never said such a thing either? So where does this teaching come from? Does it come from the Holy Spirit, or perhaps from THE SPIRIT OF UNBELIEF? It seems to me that this is just another way for people to justify their unwillingness to carry their cross through to the bitter but glorious end. There is an end to the sufferings of the cross, beloved. It's called THE RESURRECTION OUT FROM THE DEAD! (not speaking here of the resurrection OF the dead). Along these lines, I feel to share here some thoughts on the differences between incorruptibility and immortality. Perhaps these things will provoke you to some serious thought and meditation on this subject too. -- D
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In the scriptures, the Greek word “Aphtharsia” is usually translated as “incorruptibility,” which means not corruptible or no longer subject to corruption or decay. This seems to be quite different from the Greek word “Athanasia,” which is usually translated as “immortality” in the Bible, and which means no longer able to die. Many folks believe that these words are interchangeable, but I don’t believe this to be so.
It seems to me, beloved, that these two Greek words point to two very DIFFERENT conditions, both which come into play with regard to the revealing of the Sons of God, one that is PENULTIMATE, or next to final condition for Sons, and quite possibly relative to the “exanastasis” or the resurrection (OUT FROM the dead) that Paul hoped to “attain” to, and the other a condition which is ULTIMATE, or one of the glorification of the ENTIRE Body of Christ at the end of the Kingdom age.
My meditations on these things have led me to ask a few questions...
Is it possible for a mortal but incorruptible human to live to be 1000 years old? What I mean by this is, is it possible that the “first resurrection” might be a resurrection of the soul to a place of “incorruptibility” of heart and mind (the mind of Christ) where even the deadly effects of sin can no longer work on the mortal members, although (and to quote a famous secular scientist who believed that what I say is possible) one must still “beware of bears and falling pianos”?
Beloved, could it be that no human (corruptible in mind and heart through the bloodline of Adam) has lived beyond 969 years because the curse placed on the line of Adam was, “The day in which you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (open yourself up to death through the sin principle which will work through your carnal mind) is the day in which you will surely die,” and that this particular “day” spoken of here is actually a 1000 year day (as revealed in Peter's prophetic time clock - "a day as a thousand years")? It’s quite clear that Adam did not “die” physically on the very day that he and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam lived to be 930 years old!
So, if part of the curse placed on the line of Adam was that no one from that line would live beyond a 1000 year day, should it not be true that Jesus (who walked free from the curse of sin and death, hence was “incorruptible”) could have lived indefinitely in a physical and yet mortal body? I believe that this could be so, but as we know, He CHOSE to lay that perfect and incorruptible life down so that Adam’s line might be freed from the curse on Adam to become new creations in Christ! Blessed be the Lord!
With these things in mind, might it be true that in what seems to be an up and coming 1000 year Kingdom age of Tabernacles, a remnant people will corporately enter into an incorruptible life together, the INCORRUPTIBLE SEED of Christ’s life coming to full and complete fruition in the womb of their souls, and thus they will inherit something that is described in scripture as “The life of the Age” (something which has been wrongly translated as “eternal life” in many Bibles, by the way), and for the first time in human history men and women will be able to live beyond the 1000 year limit relegated to the children of Adam? Is it possible that this is part of the manifestation of the Sons of God for which all of creation groans, a people who no longer have the corruptible mind and heart of the adamic life, and thus, sin and death (and even sickness) can no longer work upon their still yet mortal members?
Beloved, might it be possible that what is written about here is “the greater things than these” ministry, and is that which will lead to the greatest harvest in world history and then to a “second” and somewhat different (general) resurrection at the end of the Kingdom age? Could it be that THIS is when the Sons will cross that 1000 year mark and even THE LAST ENEMY- DEATH will then be put under the feet of the body of Christ so that ALL believers in Christ (on both sides of the veil) can be given their robes of “IMMORTALITY” together?
Could it possibly be that this Kingdom age ministry that I speak of here IS the restoration of the “Tabernacle of David” referred to by the prophet Amos and also spoken of by the disciple James in the book of Acts?
I think that it could be so.
If even some of what I put forth in this letter is true, beloved (though it all might be), is it not also possible then that Paul, and/or some other saints from centuries past, may have actually attained to an “incorruptible” yet mortal state at some point in their earthly life, but the Father may have allowed them to die in some way (perhaps as martyrs) because the appointed time for the last enemy (death) to be completely overcome was not yet, and the time for the corporate Body of Christ’s glorification was appointed for yet another age?
It could be. I don’t think that we can completely rule that out. And if we can’t rule that out, should we not also think it possible that an “incorruptible” state of mind and heart (salvation of the soul) is available to you and I as individuals RIGHT NOW, even though that state of BE-ing is something that is VERY RARELY “attained” to in one’s life here on earth and this because most people are UNWILLING to go through THE UTTER TEARING OF SELF that is required to attain to this?
Now, there is no way to know for sure if Paul, before he died, actually attained to what he described for us in Philippians 3:10-11. But isn’t it pretty clear that what He was hoping to “attain to” was the FULLNESS of the incorruptible mind and heart of Christ? He surely wasn’t hoping for that cunningly devised fable and complacency causer known as the “escape rapture,” now was he? Of course he wasn't.
With that in mind, lets also consider this...
If there have been some folks who have personally attained to the “first resurrection” state in times past, but by God’s sovereign choosing they went the way of the grave, not to be resurrected in a terrestrial body until the END of the age of Tabernacles, does that not mean that they must now be ruling and reigning with Christ in some capacity from the other side of the veil, and that they will also minister in that same capacity and from that same side of the veil during the Kingdom age on earth? It seems to me that that just might be so. There is scripture that bears this out, though I'm not going to share on that here.
I asked the Lord about all of this quite a while back and He had me think upon Moses’ and Elijah’s appearance with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. What first came to mind was that Moses and Elijah together represent the law and the prophets, and to us this represents a ministry of lawful prophecy in the up and coming age. This of course, is in contrast to much of the “lawlessness” that we have seen in the church in ages past. But I knew that there's still much more to this. So, I asked the Lord for a little more, and He opened me up to a single scripture verse from the Gospel of Matthew. It was this …
“Elijah does come first and restores everything.”
Whatever the truth is about all of this, beloved, I KNOW that there is a mighty great WORK OF RESTORATION at hand, though the laborers for this restoration work still only be few.
My closing thoughts on this is that if Jesus is the Pattern for the manifestation of Sons of God (and He is), then it appears to me that these sons must first manifest even "the Spirit without measure" in bodies that are made of FLESH AND BLOOD, just as Jesus did. We should keep in mind though, that this is NOT the ultimate or final state of these Sons, but the penultimate state.
Also, and a major point in sharing what I have, is that the way to glorification is NOT through a physical rapture or through physical death, but rather is through a rapture of the soul into a place of perfect submission to God and this by us walking in the SUFFERINGS OF THE CROSS. God’s salvation plan reaches into the entire trichotomy of man, beloved. Scripture bears out that the salvation of the spirit of man precedes that of his soul, and the salvation of his soul then precedes that of his body. In other words, salvation is THREEFOLD, and even the individual parts which make up man get saved each in their own rank and order - first the spirit (which is a "free gift"), then the soul (which must be "worked out"), and then the body (which is "the salvation we yet hope for" - even the final redemption of the WHOLE Body of Christ!).
I'll end this all here, beloved, by saying that I think Jesus’ 3 1/2 year earthly ministry is a powerful indication and demonstration of a PENULTIMATE STATE of BE-ing FOR US, the state of a Son in manifestation of the fullness of God’s Spirit while still in a flesh and blood body. I see "the Tabernacle of David" as a prophetic type of a corporate manifestation of this, and I see Solomon’s Temple as a type of something other than that, it perhaps even representing the “ultimate” state, as far as the Body of Christ on the earth is concerned, it representative of those who have "attained to the first resurrection" but who have been on the other side of the veil BEING JOINED with those who are "alive and who remain" on earth at the end of the next age, these all, finally, together, MADE "PERFECT," all to the glory of God.
Surely, some food for thought here.
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Chris Welch's Comment on Annelize's post
In 1981 we were worshipping and the Lord gave me this kind of Word. it had to be prophecy because my mind would have frozen it as impossible. I then came across Sam Fife's stream and later Daniel Yordy who all preach this.
The thing I now say is that it almost becomes an irrelevance since following Jesus is a now by now way and watching what He is doing through us is far more proactive than any previous form of believing. I of myself cannot produce resurrection in me....but I can believe God for the next thing in the next minute. This catches us up in the realm Jesus lived....for example in John 7 addressing those around you with
your time is always with you...I am not going up to the Feast.....then being led by the Spirit up to the Feast regardless....
or hollering at the top of your voice in the most inopportune of religious settings....
or helping others when nobody else will touch them
or doing ludicrously thorough things when everybody is slapdash
or doing things quickly when the Spirit is saying .....don't major on the minors....don't tithe mint and cumin.....I am not in this
or deliberately butting into nonsensical deliberations of others with the Word of the Lord....
like" this has happened not because of the parent's sin or the person's sin....this is all about the glory of God NOW....Be healed...
see what I mean?
Walking in the Spirit is just like riding a bike....
after a while.....being off balance ceases to be relevant.....because we know we can ride...and our senses are trained according to righteousness....and if we sin...we KNOW we sin and we KNOW there are consequences and they hurt!!!!
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